Production Boat Offshore - Summary ?

[Thames 4 Blood]

Im sure that is sound advice! I am considering, owing to our limited experience, hiring a professional skipper to sail with us down to the Med. The downside of this is of course, that you are then on a timetable.... If we sail alone we are under no pressure to depart and can await optimal conditions.
Over the years I have spent many happy weeks on vacation all around the Med. The food... The people... The landscapes.... I think the challenge may be to ever sail away from there! :-)

[carstenb]

Mark

You should be able to sail down yourself. The Biscay is the bad spot. Best time to cross is in June or early July. Get yourself down to the south coast of England or Ireland and wait for a low pressure to pass- then sail immediately behind it. Generally you will have a 3-4 day window here to get across to la Coruna. Do get several weather forecast before you go.

Sailing inthe Med is usually a case of too much wind or no wind. But the food and wine are great.

[Thames 4 Blood]

I think that with the time to await a favourable weather window it should be fine! However, as something of an amature maritime historian, The Bay of Biscay is ingrained on my brain along with Cape Horn and Krakens Cave LOL....

[CnC40sailor]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

One other feature you don't want to miss out on will be hull shape which will give you a more kindly sea motion especially if you plan to anchor out most of the time. Jeanneau offers this over Beneteau. I'm talking about the sickening motion that gets started by swells while anchored in a relatively flat bottom wide body vessel... the side to side movement of the boat which seems to launch everything that's not tied down to the other side of your interior. .

I'm not so sure about this....philippe Briand, who seems to design a lot of their boats, tends to like the wide, fast (flat bottom) designs. He certainly designs em fast but, I'm not so sure about their seakindness...

[carstenb]

My Sun Fast is not designed by Philippe Briand, and it has excellent sea kindness. When at anchor she rides easily.

[jeremiason]

The boat you are looking at is similar to our Catalina 470 in design and uses many of the same mechanicals, including the main Yanmar engine...


We looked at the Beneteau 's, but didn't like the forward cabin design, which to me is very uncomfortable while underway or in a rolly anchorage. There were some other little details that deterred me, but the boat is a very good design.


When we first decided to buy our boat, I went to the C-470 owner’s group email list and posed the question:"If you were ordering a new boat what would you do again and more importantly what would you do different?"

These guys gave some good advice as far as were the factory might have thought something was a good idea at the time, but was proven different in the real world. I received about 50 suggestions of things like: Better locations for the AC units, having the factory run extra wires for future use and to where, types of flooring used and even installing a third diesel tank.

I not going to tell you one boat is better over the other one... ALL boats have their pluses and minuses, but is my two cents about equipment:

Since you are more than likely to be double handing a majority of the time, I would suggest a go sail handling system for near-coastal and off shore sailing. Although this will bring up another debate.... I believe that an in furler boom is the only way to go. The system allows you to reef under load from the cockpit. It is also easy to pull down on the deck if something goes wrong, unlike the in mast furlers. We use the Leisure Furl version and like its performance.

Again, since it will just be you and your wife, find a boat with a minimum of a power halyard winch, but optimally power primary winches as well.

You mentioned a bow thruster and like you his was my first boat with one... The only thing I have to say is I will never purchase another sailboat over 40 feet without one.

We also have a wing keel, instead of a full keel. The advantage for us was 2' 2"(About .65 meters) less draught, which is huge in the shallow areas of the Caribbean and coasts of Central America. On the negative side we lost about 5 degrees of pointing ability due to the shorter wing keel, which when cruising does not mean very much, since we tend to try and fall off the wind for a more comfortable sail.

Catalina offered composite flooring on our boat and I would Beneteau does too... Something similar to the popular Pergo Flooring... Again, I would not own another boat without it... Ours looks just like teak and holly, but has not scratched after six years of living aboard even when our sheepdog live aboard for the first three years. On my past two boat the teak and holly did hold up well to normal use and had to be refinished about every 4-6 years.

Whatever boat you buy, make sure it has lots of storage... I found it shocking how fast you run out of room, even when you buy a bigger boat.

Finally, as I mentioned earlier, I would suggest your join an Oceanis owners group and ask them... Most owners are proud of their vessels, but they can be brutally honest as well...
Here is the web link for the UK Beneteau Owners Association:
http://www.beneteau-owners-association.org.uk/

[Thames 4 Blood]

Thanks Tom, Asking the owners forum is a very shrewd move! I will try that for sure!
I also like the idea of in-boom furling! I actually like in mast furling BUT... The thought of a tangled and unreefable main in stiffening winds gives me the horrors! With in boom furling you also have the advantage of a lower centre of gravity with a furled sail which is significant. I dont really understand why this version is not more popular?

I am not so worried about storage for myself but my Wife is definately a hoarder. The trouble I find is that however much storage you have ( and I currently have 6 garages at home none of which have room for an actual car..... ) you end up filling it up... Admitedly, on a boat you probably have fewer lawn mowers and motorbikes but still....

I also have a dog but I dont think I would want to take him to sea... Of everything, that is the hardest point to deal with. He has the offer of several good homes but its going to break my heart to leave him behind.

Composite floors - I would agree with that. I would happily sacrifice a little asthetics for ruggedness and usually the synthetics look great anyway.

Winged keel... Thats actually a big Q for me. As we plan on sailing accross the atlantic in time a shallow draft would be a great advantage. I honestly dont know which way to go on this. I think it will end up on the list of "would like to haves" when we start boat shopping in earnest!

Mark.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Thames 4 Blood

....
1. Cost! Having around £150,000 GBP to play with will buy me a very clean, well cared for nearly new proddy boat we can almost climb aboard and sail. As much as I am not a mechanical nincompoop, I do not have the specific skill set, time or inclination to buy a 10 yr old+ custom boat and update, renew, refresh the systems aboard...

Mark

Mark
I'm going to disagree with this part of the plan to perhaps help you set your expectations more realistically; and then be able to enjoy the cruise more. Even if you bought a brand new boat you will be spending considerable time fixing systems and reworking systems to make them work for you. It is a reality of cruising - you need tools, spares and an attitude of maintenance.

[Thames 4 Blood]

Hi Paul, Thank you for your thoughts! In terms of maintenance I fully accept that and have always found it a pleasure to look after boats or any other loved "toys". However, as a novice to cruising I would not wish to undertake major system overhauls / upgrades, at least until I have a far better baseline from which to start. Its one thing to work with a functioning system for 6 months and then decide to upgrade / tune it to meet with your needs. Its another to try to define your needs from a standing start!

One thing I do have is tools! Infact my biggest challenge may be what not to take...

[jeremiason]

Originally Posted by Thames 4 Blood

I also like the idea of in-boom furling! ... I dont really understand why this version is not more popular?

I am not so worried about storage for myself but my Wife is definately a hoarder.

I also have a dog but I dont think I would want to take him to sea...

Winged keel... Thats actually a big Q for me. As we plan on sailing accross the atlantic in time a shallow draft would be a great advantage.
Mark.

OK when I have an audience I ramble...

In Boom furlers are definetly a divorce saver :-) The negative side is like any sailing handling system, not many crew can walk on and use it... It takes a little time to master, but it is definety my choice.

I was teaching at a US Sailing School in San Francisco Bay... When I did my Cruising Instructor Certification we were on a Jeaneau 43 with an in mast furler... 3 student instructors on the boat and one salty instructor trainner. In less than one hour we had that main sail so jammed it would not retract or come out of the furler. We had to return to the dock with the sail lashed to the mast. It took about an our to go up the mast and work it out.


Obivously this incident was caused from lack of experience by the crew, but what if one of your crew does the same thing 100 miles off shore. It would really suck going up the mast while bobbing i the ocean.


That is when I made my decision not have an in mast furler on my boat. At least if there is a failure on the in boom furler I can bring the sail down nd lash it to the boom, or take it off completely.

You will find storage is more than what you bring from home... Once you start provisioning, you will quickly learn the galley never has enough room.

On our boat most of the bildges are taken up with mechanical things, like the AC pumps... So we have to use large plastic bins to store extra provisions. Not to mention all the extra crap you bring along with you that you don't normally take on day sails, like oil, filters, spare parts, etc... As an example, engine oil in Mexico was about 16 dollars a gallon, in Costa Rica it was $40 per gallon... So when it is cheap, we buy 8 or ten gallons.

I feel your pain about the dog.... But our sheepdog had a better retirement than us... He hips were getting a little old for the boat, so we sent him back to my brother in law's farm in northern Italy about one year beore we left... He spent his last year chasing cows and meeting the the town's people who had never seen a sheepdog.

As far as winged keels... I would suggest you sail one and see what you think... Talk to a marine architect and have them explain the principal and again, ask the owners what they think... As an example, 75% of the Catalina 470's are made with wind keels and they seldom build the boat until a customer orders it, so it is the owners choosing wing over a full keel.

Like I said, the only thing you give up is pointing ability. You will soon learn that the one thing you don't do on long passages, especilly ocean passages is go close hauled for very long periods. For me and my wife it just is to uncomfortable.

Also we have found that the wing keel actually acts a little like a stabilizer or "Flopper Stopper" in anchorages. I was buddy boating with a sister ship and we were in the same rolly anchorage. My boat rolled less drastically and stabilzed faster than the sister ship with a full length keel.

[Thames 4 Blood]

Thanks Tom... I am amazed and very grateful at the way people share knowledge here. It has a real value!
I find the hardest thing deciphering the guys who have read a lot, added their own dockside opinion and then repost their hearsay views like Moses preaching the gospel... The flip side of that is guys like you who have genuine, relevant experience and are happy to share it. Pretty cool really!
Mark.

[IntoMyHealth]

Originally Posted by carstenb

I'm the one who gets to use the sextant.

I'm sorry, the what?

[carstenb]

I'm not a fan of in-boom furlers. They can be prone to failure and difficult to roll. To my mind you have your sail sewn for a dutchman mainsail flaking system, and your reefing system set up so you can do it from the cockpit with only one halyard (sorry my english sometimes fails me - proper term here is not halyard but?) at any rate I think you all know what I am talking about.

The dutchman system will flake the mainsail properly every time is no matter what conditions and when you reef, it will flake it properly here also.

Intomyhealth - sextant. Ahhhh yes. you know one of those funny mechanical gadgets that help you find out where you are in the world. Like a slide rule was before someone invented the pocket calculator (I still have a slide rule which only shows my age - sigh)

[CnC40sailor]

I'm not sure if this was previously stated but, I think it would be good for you to identify what your pros and cons of the beneteau are. This I think would show prudence. People could then give you other recommendations allowing you to fully understand the full range of boats that fit your criteria.

[Thames 4 Blood]

I am loath to solicit opinions that I would have to view as subjective... If anyone has any views regarding any modern production boats in the 41ft to 46ft range I would love to hear them! Whats available at the right price will probably end up deciding the final choice. I may slightly prefer an Oceanis 46 but if a Sun Odyssey 439 with the right spec came along at what I considered to be a far better deal I would not walk away from it. Surely that is one of the advantages of the production type boats? Especially in this market!