Production Boat Offshore - Summary ?

[sailorboy1]

just so funny some times

[carstenb]

how do we get off on these divergent tacks? the proper placement of a shitter? alignment angles, etc.

I certainly had to perform bodily functions while in gale force and more winds. I've never had a problem -

[Grona Hissen]

To Jim
Apparently you have not grasped my idea of joining this thread. I originally asked for the best cruising yacht between 40-45 feet. I don’t say that every European yacht is bad. But is this what we want, or is it the only type we can afford? These hulls have been shaped by different types of racing rules over the years and not for best safety. Is it this what we really want? A gigantic dinghy will always behave like a dinghy. Is it practical? Is it safe? Or is it only a dream to steer a boat with double steering wheels in high speed?
There are no rules as to the possibilities to fasten security lines without reinforcement of the GRP. The engine does not fulfill the requirement of 6 hp per ton dry weight. Many times the winches are too small and can’t be mastered by the female part of the crew. There are many times no grab rails in the ceiling. The bunks are fine for harbour nights but useless in open water. Why isn’t there four reeves in the main sail? Are we better of with cutter rigged boats.
Many time there is a cockpit filled with crew, and beneath, there are engines, batteries, anchors and so on. Area, one third of the boat. The rest normally contains nothing. This will make the boat hard on the rudder since the designers intentions of boat balance were ignored by the production team.
My views on the heads are there for one reason alone, and that is because, I want people to start think, and maybe suggest something better, the comment that I ought to stop sailing doesn’t belong here.

There is never a problem to sail away, but sail home, can sometimes be a lot harder.
Sincerely

[Thames 4 Blood]

Originally Posted by Grona Hissen

To Jim
Apparently you have not grasped my idea of joining this thread. I originally asked for the best cruising yacht between 40-45 feet.

Hi Grona,
Actually I started the thread and I did not ask that Q. I also wanted to avoid the traditional and somewhat entrenched arguments that all production boats will kill their hapless owners the second they pass the harbour bar.
Without doubt there are better suited yachts for offshore passage making. However, within my budget / requirement range I proposed that a well found production boat may suit me perfectly well and allow me to sail to the Med for a season with a justified hope of survival.
Beyond that point I do not have the relevant experience to say if I would subsequently sail that same boat accross the Atlantic. If I did choose to then maybe some significant mods would 1st be needed. I just dont know...
I respect your views and appreciate your contribution. I just feel that to reach the opinions with which I started the thread I have read literally hundreds of posts arguing just this point and I am not sure there is much to gain by re-running them here.

I write with sincere respect and hope you will not be offended.

Mark.

[Pete7]

Mark,

If you are in the UK around the time of the Southampton Boat Show, the ARC run a mornings briefing/presentation plus question and answer sessions for prospective Atlantic crews. All very easy going and well worth attending for a small charge. Lots of good advice from folk who had sailed more miles in numerical terms than the cost of their yacht.

Pete

[Stu Jackson]

I am NOT a world cruiser, but two things I see that I wouldn't want on a boat, anywhere: forward single heads - mine is admidships and works just great; long single counter-style galleys - dangerous at sea.

[zeehag]

the best cruising boat i ever saw was a formosa 51. i have a formosa 41. as i am not able to finance a larger boat -- i will keep mine. mine is as perfect cruising boat as i could get. this is heaven.
also good are gozzard designs, perry designs, cheoy lees, many but not all, and ancient clipperships that flew on seas.......liberty, tartan, valiant--there ar emany designs that are good for cruising, large or small.
as for production boats--i believe even formosa and ct from formosa boat builders may have been able to be considered a production boat of its day.....
thankyou for posting that video of sea life for us--

it all depends on the sailor involved whether boat can or cannot do something.....

[CnC40sailor]

Originally Posted by Thames 4 Blood

Hi Grona,
Actually I started the thread and I did not ask that Q. I also wanted to avoid the traditional and somewhat entrenched arguments that all production boats will kill their hapless owners the second they pass the harbour bar.
Without doubt there are better suited yachts for offshore passage making. However, within my budget / requirement range I proposed that a well found production boat may suit me perfectly well and allow me to sail to the Med for a season with a justified hope of survival.
Beyond that point I do not have the relevant experience to say if I would subsequently sail that same boat accross the Atlantic. If I did choose to then maybe some significant mods would 1st be needed. I just dont know...
I respect your views and appreciate your contribution. I just feel that to reach the opinions with which I started the thread I have read literally hundreds of posts arguing just this point and I am not sure there is much to gain by re-running them here.

I write with sincere respect and hope you will not be offended.

Mark.

Just wandering, have you considered something not brand new?

[Grona Hissen]

To Mark.

Of course I have looked at the second hand market. As I said before, nobody knows how old a a well kept GRP yacht can be and and still be safe. Older boats have thicker GRP in generall. Heavier hull and higher ballast ratio. And I wasn't asuming new when I got into this mess. And the price tag is way under 95000 USD

To Stu Jackson
It is really heart warming to see that some people acctually understand my English, this was exactly was I was loocking for.
Let's have some more of that.

Sincerely

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

I am NOT a world cruiser, but two things I see that I wouldn't want on a boat, anywhere: forward single heads - mine is admidships and works just great; long single counter-style galleys - dangerous at sea.

Stu
You make some big assumptions about long single counter galleys. It all depends on what and how far away the opposite side is. Center cockpits often have galleys in the space between the companioway and hull going aft. Some Euro boats have a single long galley with the area opposite the back side of the settee. Both just fine. Then there are the completely open, fly anywhere implementations - not so good.

[JRM]

Originally Posted by Thames 4 Blood

JRM. Can I ask how much time you spend aboard and how the size of boat suits you? I have sailed a couple of 37 - 39 foot boats and find them great but I am worried about living in there full time! If I thought we could handle it I would almost certainly buy a Beneteau 473. I love these boats but they sure are big so thats probably not an option....

Well, we're just noobs ourselves. Our typical trips are three days to a week. I think if you look at the 423, you'll find it's a wee smaller version of the 473, although without the sweet walk-in lazarette.

Our new boat is 40 feet, which is about the upper limit that we originally set for ourselves. Coming from a 30 footer, it seems like a palace every time we go below. It even has two "cabins" that have their own solid doors! It is a double-ender, so I'm guessing it has the interior room of one of the newer 36 footers or so. The space is configured differently, without any huge open areas, so it's hard to compare. It definitely seems smaller inside than the 393, even though it's a smidge longer LOA.

I still think that the best boat we looked at, in any price range, was a 2000 Moody 42CC. We bought the best boat that we could actually afford, which is a 1975 Valiant 40. I find it somewhat ironic that the people who rail against production boats often point to the Valiant as the definition of "blue water capable" and yet it was a production boat.

I would suggest that rather than get hung up on brands this early on, that you start making some lists of features. A list of things the boat absolutely must have, things you would like to have, and things that would be nice to have. Make a second set of things that are deal breakers, things you don't want, and things that you'd rather not have. These lists will grow and change over time as you see more and more real boats, and as you gain experience. Some folks want a full keel as a must have. Others not so much... They're your lists, make them what you want. It seems that a lot of the arguing online about what boat is best, and what one will kill you, is because different people have different lists, and everyone thinks their lists are "right".

We regularly added things to the list that we saw in boats we looked at. For example, because our starter boat didn't have doors separating the sleeping areas (and we have an 8 year old), we decided that the next boat had to have at least two cabins, and they had to have doors that could close. We went and saw a boat with two heads and liked it, so in the "want" category we put having two heads. As it turns out, the boat we bought didn't have a second one, but it was a "want" and not a "must have."

Also, whatever boat you look at, make sure you sit in every seat and lay down in every bunk. Oh, and lie down in the cockpit, too. Everyone's body shape is different, and some boats that were otherwise really great we found to have horrible seating or sleeping comfort. Also, sit on the head and close the door. Imagine doing it while moving. Some head layouts are great on paper and nuts in operation.

I'd suggest you look at lots and lots of boats before making a decision. People here told us that when we found the right boat, we'd know. They were right. There's so much to everyone's taste that it's impossible to try and pick a boat on the Internet (as much as we tried). It almost became a second job. But it was worth it.

JRM

[Thames 4 Blood]

Thanks JRM. That is sensible advice! Circling back to a previous post, my wifes list includes a corner style galley, not inline along the salon. What seems to complicate things is that we both really want a roomy centre line cabin for when we are in port. These obviously dictate a slightly larger boat. Im 6' 1" and neither of us like really cramped cabins. I will add that I know that at sea this is not a good cabin but who here spends more than 5% of their time on board on passage?
My list seems to cover the sailing side... As I said before, we have 3 weeks aboard in Sept and I suspect she will have a few sharply defined views on such things as hull shape by October :-)

Pete7 - We are in Gib for almost the whole show but are planning to be at Southampton for the last day 23 Sep. If they are doing briefings on that Sunday we will be sure to catch it! Top tip. Thanks!

Mark

[carstenb]

Mark,

You are, of course, correct in that few spend more than 5-10% of their sailing time on passages. A proper salon that meets your needs is a must and you should not compromise on this. As I've mentioned before I have a 40 foot Jeanneau Sun FAst, L-shaped pantry, large salon with a curved sofa on one side (just long enough that you can sleep on it during passage) and two chairs on the other side (great for reading).

The cockpit is where you will spend most of your time while in the tropics. Our Jeanneau has twin helms so the cockpit benches are not long enough to sleep on. However, because of the twin helms, the cockpit floor is enormous and easily allows sleeping there (with room to spare) and without getting in the helmsman's way. This is actually great for passages, because you can sleep where the least motion is and be there instantly to help the watch if necessary. We have had a couple of mattresses sewn that exactly fit on the cockpit floor. Actually it is not bad while at anchor either. You will sleep in the free. Cooler and if there is a breeze you will get it. Great.

One thing you need to look critically at is airing out below decks. When you are in the tropics, unless you blow for aircon, it will be hot. Are there enough hatches/windows etc to allow proper air circulation? Throughout the boat.

And don't let yourself be bullied into thinking that only custom built boats can be cruisers. Lots and lots of production boats have and are now cruising and circumnavigating. If you are a reasonable competent skipper you will not have a problem

[Thames 4 Blood]

Originally Posted by carstenb

Mark,

We have had a couple of mattresses sewn that exactly fit on the cockpit floor. Actually it is not bad while at anchor either. You will sleep in the free. Cooler and if there is a breeze you will get it. Great.

What an excellent idea!

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Grona Hissen

(...) Older boats have thicker GRP in generall. Heavier hull and higher ballast ratio. (...)

Unfortunatelly, they often have deep canoe body so some of the higher ballast ratio (if and when it is higher, which is often not the case!) will be 'wasted'.

So, you will end up with possibly less (!) stability (vis-a-vis modern bulb ballast) but you will gain the bilge that keeps the boat dry and some valuable storage space too!

BTW I HATE the way any water that found its way onboard the modern design WILL slosh endlessly under and over the floor boards wetting all systems and much of my possessions.

So to say.
b.