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Old 12-08-2012, 01:07   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thames 4 Blood
I am loath to solicit opinions that I would have to view as subjective... If anyone has any views regarding any modern production boats in the 41ft to 46ft range I would love to hear them! Whats available at the right price will probably end up deciding the final choice. I may slightly prefer an Oceanis 46 but if a Sun Odyssey 439 with the right spec came along at what I considered to be a far better deal I would not walk away from it. Surely that is one of the advantages of the production type boats? Especially in this market!
You and I seem to have a different idea in what we want in a boat. You want a brand new beneteau or something similar to that. Those don't appeal to me at all. If you would like me to elaborate, I will gladly. Just a warning, I tend to be very blunt.
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Old 12-08-2012, 01:30   #32
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Re: Production Boat Offshore - Summary?

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Originally Posted by Thames 4 Blood View Post
I am loath to solicit opinions that I would have to view as subjective... If anyone has any views regarding any modern production boats in the 41ft to 46ft range I would love to hear them! Whats available at the right price will probably end up deciding the final choice. I may slightly prefer an Oceanis 46 but if a Sun Odyssey 439 with the right spec came along at what I considered to be a far better deal I would not walk away from it. Surely that is one of the advantages of the production type boats? Especially in this market!
I'm no expert on seaworthiness, but I will say that the wife and I both really liked the layout and feel of the Beneteau 423. We had originally discounted it as we had set our initial limit at 40 feet. But we liked the 393 so much (put in an offer on one that was rejected), that we thought we'd give one a look. Ended up looking at three, one *really* hard. We looked at just about everthing available, even the new ones, and for us the 423 layout just seemed better. It has some inherent weaknesses, the shaft seal nipple being a big one, but nothing that hasn't already been figured out by other owners.

There's a really active owners group for both the 393 and the 423. We also took several looks at the Beneteau 37, but after spending quite some time really going over it, the construction didn't give us the warm fuzzies, and the salon seats were uncomfortable for our bodies. Spend a week or two in the archives of those lists and you'll get a much better feel for the boats.

We ended up going a different direction, but if we hadn't of purchased what we did, we'd probably be sailing a 423 or 393 (or, if we hit the lotto, the 2000 Moody 42CC in Alameda.)

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Old 12-08-2012, 01:54   #33
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Re: Production Boat Offshore - Summary?

Thanks for that. I am not trying to rehearse, yet again, the proddy boat Vs custom discussion. If you feel any of my assumptions are flawed and would be kind enough to say why I would be grateful!
JRM. Can I ask how much time you spend aboard and how the size of boat suits you? I have sailed a couple of 37 - 39 foot boats and find them great but I am worried about living in there full time! If I thought we could handle it I would almost certainly buy a Beneteau 473. I love these boats but they sure are big so thats probably not an option....
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Old 12-08-2012, 04:51   #34
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Adding to the discussion of in boom furlers I am happy to keep it simply, I think there is a saying that says " keep it simply stupid" ? Anyway it's common to already to have your reefing points already rigged up and if you got lazy jacks a bonus one with a built-in swag even better, although the short handed convenience of roller furlers may seem appealing it's when things turns nasty that you have to have failsafes and a unreefable main sail in a gale could set off a series of dramas, my two cents anyway , cheers.
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Old 12-08-2012, 08:04   #35
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Re: Production Boat Offshore - Summary ?

Thanks Yellow. There is an inescapable logic to that. I have heard it said the only system that never beaks at sea is one thats not there. Im with you that an un reefable main at sea is a grim picture indeed. However, with in boom reefing at least you can lower the sail... But... Im not sure the complications inherant are worth the benefits over a lazy jack system.
Yet again... There are a lot of in mast reefing sails out there right now as we type. I think I have just argued all 3 sides to an argument in one paragraph. I need a lay down :-)
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Old 12-08-2012, 08:55   #36
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Re: Production Boat Offshore - Summary ?

Dear boat buyer.
It is time to heave to.
I simply suggest that you rent a yacht with skipper and thereby learn its way of hobby horsing, sail her feel her act. Feel her bad weather performance. The balance with different sails settings? If yacht is pounding into the waves, all due to a flat area in front of the keel. Are the storm sails easy to work?
To see if the head is actually working in bad weather. You need to be relaxed in order to perform; otherwise you will have to puncture the urine bladder from the outside. It is absolutely imperative that your body is supported and that the contents of the ball doesn’t end up in your foul weather gear. Shower stall is also important.
How will the yacht perform when added with a couple of tons of food, water, fuel, spare parts and so on.
First of all. European yachts are made for European weather and sea circumstances. There is a nearly perfect weather monitoring. The distances from England to Denmark isn’t all that long. And we have a great archipelago area.
I’ve seen the English channel in full scale gale and that is not a pretty sight. A lot worse than the North Atlantic in the same winds. In English channel it is possible to avoid bad weather by seeking shelter.
I’ve read the entire thread, and I won’t stick my head out in the debate between monohull and catamaran.
I do however see a lack of true blue water yachts. This means yachts that are affordable, and yet still big enough to be comfortable. This means that the hull should have some weight for easy hobby horsing. One thing is quite clear you can’t copy a good sailing yacht in wood into GRP and believe it will perform like a wooden boat. I have heard about sailing yachts in the Biscay that had to remove the entire interior in form of splinters. So the entire hull is actually moving!! This in itself can trigger a rig problem.
Full keel and balanced rudder will make it a lot easier for the helmsman. Since we are lazy by nature we will follow the trade winds. That means downwind sailing, and course stability is essential. Some form of rudder protection due to sleeping whales or hungry really big fish.
We know today the strength of the GRP, and boats are built to withstand normal weather conditions. This makes the survival point comes closing in on us. I do not agree that yachts that turns over 45 degrees by wind alone are suited for ocean sailing, regardless if they can do 30 NM downwind. The keel weight ratio, should in accordance with my thinking, be min. 45 percent. The roof top of a modern sailor is in many cases, almost all, not designed to cope with a breaker from a storm. Most of them aren’t adapted to hard wind sailing. And the rigs aren’t adapted to possible weather and sea circumstances. When the mast with double spreaders, starts to dance the hula-hula, when the bow is pounding into sea waves, something is awfully wrong.
I definitely believe that a yacht that is aimed for the high sea for a couple of years must be reinforced in the production line.
The mast must stand on deck, for obvious reasons. However the gap between the keel and the deck should be supported by solid steel, for stability and prevention of lightning explosion.
All heavy things like the batteries should not be able to move in a upside down position. If they get loose they can cause severe damage or injury. Look out for windows and hatches that can be opened by pressure from inside. Control of glass pressure before it brakes.
Is there actually a point where you can fasten the life line, or does this place have to be reinforced?
Take a thirty foot line and fasten it between two trees. Put some form of scale in one end. Hang a weight on to you in form of 35 lbs. for whet foul weather gear. Then through yourself against the line with full force. You will be amazed by the pressure that is created in the ends.
Engine should produce 6 hp per ton DW. Good old English rule.
In my view there is only one man that has grasped the problem fully, and his name was Colin Archer.
Some people might argue that his yachts are too slow. They aren’t slow if there is wind. The weight of these yachts is impressive and nearly 50 % is in keel weight. That combined with a huge Beam makes an excellent sailing yacht good for gale force. And I quite frankly do not give 10 cents on the dollar for having to worry all the time on a cruising event.
I’m desperately looking for a “high sea cruiser” 40-45 feet in length. So far I haven’t been able to find one.
If anyone that see this would like to go to the drawing board, I would like to suggest composite material
with GRP and aluminum plates.
The taste is like the back divided. That is why I have written to Yachtworld.com in order to be able to make a better selection. I have requested that additional types, i.e. dry weight, beam and keel ratio should be possible search parameters. For sailing yachts this info should be mandatory.
Pls have a look sea at: .
I’m sorry, but I do not think the developments in yacht industry are good for safe long distance cruising.
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Old 12-08-2012, 10:47   #37
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Re: Production Boat Offshore - Summary?

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Originally Posted by Thames 4 Blood View Post
. If anyone has any views regarding any modern production boats in the 41ft to 46ft range I would love to hear them!
I would choose a Moody 44 or the 425. Both yachts have cruised widely and there are a few members on here who own them. They are also in your price range.

Jonic has a nice Owners version of the 42 for sale as an example:

http://www.jryachts.com/yachtsforsale.html

Pete
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Old 12-08-2012, 11:07   #38
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Re: Production Boat Offshore - Summary ?

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Dear boat buyer.
It is time to heave to.
No, its time to get going and a sailing charter holiday to learn the ropes in the Med is an excellent idea the OP should do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grona Hissen View Post
To see if the head is actually working in bad weather. You need to be relaxed in order to perform; otherwise you will have to puncture the urine bladder from the outside. It is absolutely imperative that your body is supported and that the contents of the ball doesn’t end up in your foul weather gear. Shower stall is also important.
I think there was something lost in the translation here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Grona Hissen View Post
First of all. European yachts are made for European weather and sea circumstances. There is a nearly perfect weather monitoring. The distances from England to Denmark isn’t all that long. And we have a great archipelago area.
I’ve seen the English channel in full scale gale and that is not a pretty sight. A lot worse than the North Atlantic in the same winds. In English channel it is possible to avoid bad weather by seeking shelter.

Full keel and balanced rudder..............
and from here on in I have to disagree with you. The facts are the vast majority of yachts are now production boats. In Europe as I am sure you are aware its the big Swedish/German/French manufacturers who produce boats that meet the clients requirements. Have a look at any of the recent entries for the ARC and the vast majority are European production yachts which is what the the OP requires, because he wants to do the ARC. He isn't going around Cape Horn so doesn't need an old tub built like a T34 and so slow it will take an age to cross an ocean. Do have a read of his original requirements.

The video you posted show an old yacht in strong winds on its ear and the waves are only small. How comfortable is going to the loo when its like that. A modern fin keeled yacht sailed up right is far more like to suit his and his families needs. Go to any boat show now and you will really be pushed to find a long keeled yacht. It's all deep fin keeled because that's what people want and quite suitable for the ARC in the size he is looking for.

Here is a a very honest video shot by MarkJ on here showing life on board:

Pete


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Old 12-08-2012, 11:27   #39
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Re: Production Boat Offshore - Summary ?

Quote:

... circumnavigation ...

... Beneteau Oceanis 46. My reasons thus.....

1. Cost! Having around £150,000 GBP to play with will buy me a very clean, well cared for nearly new proddy boat (...)

2. Comfort. (...) The space and comfort offered by modern proddy boats wins hands down in this part of its use.

3. Offshore use. Should we be planning off season crossings or high / low lattitude sailing I would choose differently. Because we, like 95% of leisure cruisers, will have the choice of when to cruise and where, we sincerely hope to avoid survival type weather. (...)

4. Speed. In conjunction with the above, one of the safest ways I know of to avoid heavy weather is to be somewhere else. (...)

5. Style... (...)

(...) I personally feel that hitting a dock wall / container / rocky lee shore in anything other than a Royal Navy frigate is going to result in significant damage to any craft. (...)

I hope someone will bother to read all this... Please critique as you see fit!

Mark
Hi Mark&Co.,

Ad 1: cost: 150k quids will easily get you a quality s/h boat that is well capable of offshore work and circumnavigation(s). A 'very clean, nearly new' boat is not necessarily what gets you thru. Given your targets, you may want a boat that sails well, is sound and strong and seaworthy. Cleanliness and newness may be attributes here more than governing factors. Look for seaworthiness, structural strengths (much of which comes designed-in) and sail'ability, then, but only then, pick the thing that gives you the space and comforts to the level you need.

You may be spending 95% of your time cruising inshore but it will most likely be the offshore 5% that will decide on your ultimate success. Remember some places you will visit may be very remote: no engine mechanic, no rigger, no sailmaker and definitely no insurance agent/tow service/mobile range ... Think about it. Bet your hard earned bucks on dependability, serviceability and simplicity.

Ad2 : comfort: Newer boats tend to be more voluminous. This adds comfort in-port. Offshore, things may vary. I found many new boats dramatically lacking handholds and footholds below, with plenty of too open spaces and too sharp edges: you can trap and break your fingers and toes or get a cracked rib easily. Older designs can be great comfort and safety offshore, in-port they are great too - provided the boat is the size that meets your general comfort/space demands.

3. offshore use: IMHO, you went wrong here. I think it is a mistake to count on being in-port when the (too strong) winds blow. This may work for some but I believe that statistically you have nil chances of NOT getting involved in nasty wx system sooner or later. You said 'circumnavigate', you know the situation on the Suez route, you may be going round the Cape of Good Hope, look up wx conditions there then think again about you chances of not being in bad weather one day. This is only one example. You MAY not meet any bad wx, just do not take it for granted and do not base your equipment choices on such ill based assumptions.

4. speed: very few boats, mostly of the racing type can (at times) outrun wx systems. Speed is all good. Just do not count on it giving you any edge in the cruising context.

5. style: de gustibus non est disputandum ;-)(...)

As far as hitting anything hard comes, every year you can read stories of Bavarias, Jeanneaus (names generic) hitting objects (or not), then loosing keels, etc.. I am yet to read about Rustlers, Victorias and Vancouvers dropping their keels and rudders at this rate. After a recent intimate visit to a Bavaria's aft compartment where the rudder tube goes through I, for one, am certain this is not the kind of design I would feel safe in offshore.

Bueno. All opinions. Listen to everybody but make your own decisions. It is YOUR adventure - live it!

Fair winds!
b.
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Old 12-08-2012, 13:26   #40
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Re: Production Boat Offshore - Summary ?

Guys, Thank you all for your kind input! We are off on a 3 week training / charter trip on 2 Sept and if nothing else I feel better equiped to analyse the boats we will sail on. It should be at least 3 including a 41ft Bavaria and a Ben 473.

As much as some opinions here seem contradictory I see the validity of almost all of them. I suspect that my requirements may be a little expansive at this point and it may be that we end up with a production boat to cruise in the Med for a season or three. I would hope by then to have the mill of experience with which to grind the grist of so many options before more exotic destinations call...
Maybe a lotto win will solve the whole thing and we will buy a new Island Packet? I love those guys!
In the mean time I am committed to setting sail next spring for the Med... This is a dream I have held for far to long and life seems to be flying past! Ultimately Barnakiel hits the nail straight on the head. It is an Adventure and it needs to be lived!

Thank you all! Mark and Sam
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Old 12-08-2012, 16:09   #41
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Re: Production Boat Offshore - Summary ?

To Pete seven, moderator.
You present a very bright picture. One thing is quite clear. Good will never accept the second best. There is an American expression: “Adapt and overcome”. One can wonder where your adaption originates. To be a dreamer and ignore fact of life could turn quite dangerous.
The expression it is only crossing the Atlantic does not fit here. Sooner or later everybody is hit by a gale,
and then you must be able to trust your boat and equipment.
“Part of the research and subsequent code specifies a minimum range of stablity for a given size of yacht and a method of estimating the range of stability for yachts under 15m. The research undertaken at the Wolfson Unit indicates ... "that the most important characteristic for survival of a breaking wave capsize is a large range of stability, since vessels with low ranges are prone to remaining inverted following such an incident. Furthermore, the vessels most vulnerable to such a capsize are wide, shallow, light hulls, and these characteristics normally go hand in hand with a relatively low range of stability. It is likely therefore, that a vessel with a low range will be more likely to capsize and less likely to self-right than one with a large range of stability. A high roll inertia is of benefit in reducing capsize vulnerability but is difficult to calculate or measure and so has not been incorporated in the standards”.
Furthermore, there is a medical thing causing gentlemen not to be able to pee unless they are relaxed. Most yacht manufacturer seems to ignore this fact.
For your info. The wind power at 9 m/s, 9*9=81, and this divided with (3*3=9) makes 9, i.e. the power of the wind will increase at 9 m/sec to 9 times more than the wind of 3 m/sec. With your thinking is it at all possible to tack away from a coastline, when it starts to be windy. This scenario will need more than silk gloves.
I can’t tell people to think like I do, but in the name of good debate, why just write things of with do not agree. Or is it so, that everyone agrees with me silently. There is always a risk for bad weather and I would very much be able to adapt in advance.
Sincerly
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Old 12-08-2012, 16:55   #42
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Re: Production Boat Offshore - Summary ?

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Furthermore, there is a medical thing causing gentlemen not to be able to pee unless they are relaxed. Most yacht manufacturer seems to ignore this fact.

Sincerly
I have seen lots of odd things worried about here on CF, but this one takes the cake!

Grona, I don't know what your gender is, for you haven't graced your public profile with any useful info on yourself, but as one of the at risk "gentlemen" who has spent the last 25 years actively cruising, I can report that I have never required catheterizing, nor have any of the hundreds of other male sailors that I have encountered during these years.

Our boats have been generally of the type that you find dangerous. The current one especially is light, fairly beamy, fin keeled and flat bottomed. We've now done over 40,000 miles in her, and as you accurately predict, have seen some fairly rough weather. Perhaps nothing like F10 in Biscay, but F9 in the Southern Ocean south of Tasmania... and we have neither capsized nor have I been unable to urinate at will.

I will not engage you in the modern vs traditional design safety argument, but will point out that there are countless modern production designs that are successfully cruising, crossing big oceans, rounding the great capes and so on. While I'm not a big fan of many of these boats, the fact that they are actually succeeding in their voyages seems to mean that they are appropriately used.

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 13-08-2012, 01:09   #43
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Re: Production Boat Offshore - Summary ?

Allright Jim! Here are my thoughts on the matter.
With regards to Heads.
Most toilets are turned in a way that is nearly impossible to use them in high sea. There is no foothold and so forth, and the content seams to splashing over into my weather gear. Often it isn’t in the roll center of the yacht. There are no supporting walls. And the toilet should be turned along the length of the boat with the bowl forward. The necessity to be able to relax is imperative.
Quite frankly, the fact that you never heard about it does not mean that it doesn’t exist. I have read about it a couple of times a few years back so I can’t refer you to any text.
Not every car owner runs of the road except when there is ice on the road.
Sincerely
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Old 13-08-2012, 03:50   #44
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Re: Production Boat Offshore - Summary ?

So... Just visualising... Im trapped upside down in a keelless boat with the coach roof smased off by an exponentially increasing wind with my fully hoisted in-mast reefing mainsail scraping the rocky bottom of a lee shore in the Bay of Biscay? I think I will be excreting freely at this point...

You have to see the funny side :-)

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Old 13-08-2012, 04:29   #45
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Re: Production Boat Offshore - Summary ?

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Allright Jim! Here are my thoughts on the matter.
With regards to Heads.
Most toilets are turned in a way that is nearly impossible to use them in high sea. There is no foothold and so forth, and the content seams to splashing over into my weather gear. Often it isn’t in the roll center of the yacht. There are no supporting walls. And the toilet should be turned along the length of the boat with the bowl forward. The necessity to be able to relax is imperative.
Quite frankly, the fact that you never heard about it does not mean that it doesn’t exist. I have read about it a couple of times a few years back so I can’t refer you to any text.
Not every car owner runs of the road except when there is ice on the road.
Sincerely
Well, Grona, I think that our experiences at sea must be awfully different, and our understanding of cause and effect are at odds too.

You are correct in saying that "the fact that you never heard about it does not mean that it doesn’t exist". That is certainly true. However, your saying that it does exist does not mean that it lurks out there awaiting anyone fool enough to go to sea in a boat with an athwartships toilet. That is arrant nonsense, and the hundreds of thousands of cumulative miles sailed in boats of such design seems to prove this. Really mate, we all seem to manage to urinate despite this design flaw. I dunno about the relaxed bit... I have felt pretty wound up during a few storms at sea, but still have not suffered your predicted fate.

I will agree that in really harsh conditions the contents of the toilet bowl tend to become airborne at times. However, the orientation of the toilet (fore and aft or athwartships) will not alter that unpleasant occurrence. Not having the head near the ends of the boat, and especially not in the bow will help somewhat. The inclusion of handholds, either by the designer or the owner, will aid in maintaining one's balance, and following the advice to sit to pee when at sea helps too. Further, the use of a Lavac design head helps as well, for their lid seals tightly during the flushing cycle and avoids loss of contents from sloshing or heeling excessively.

I have no idea of your sea time experiences, but if you have actually been having a problem along these lines I would suggest that some other form of entertainment might be better for you, or that you become trained in the insertion of catheters under difficult conditions.

There are better things to worry about IMO.

Cheers,

Jim
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