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Old 05-02-2016, 13:43   #46
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Re: Pro/Con of outboard for blue water cruising

Another tip if you install an outboard to the transom: allow for the boat's squat under power. This can be a reasonably significant variation from the static waterline and could explain why some installs are prone to being swamped.

Now a stupid question for those with no choice when it comes to ethanol adulterated automotive fuels. Is avgas a possible substitute?

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Old 05-02-2016, 13:46   #47
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Re: Pro/Con of outboard for blue water cruising

fitzdority:

Snow Petrel told you more than you may realize. He said he upgraded from a sweep to an o/b. on a previous, small boat. He did not say he would have felt happy to cross the North Atlantic that way, but his instructions were to remove and stow the engine safely for ocean work, and then, sail the boat. That means that if the wind drops, you lie to the residual swell, and the sails slat, or you reef them to preserve them, or take them down and secure them till you get a breath of air. Or horse it out and apply it, saving back some fuel for harbor entry. It means you will be at the mercy of any current swirlies that could give you a problem entering some harbors, especially if the carb jet picks that moment to clog. So be prepared to anchor in vile conditions to save yourself and the boat. You will heave to to wait for weather, or just the waves to go down--forget being on any kind of schedule. I wouldn't want an o/b for that trip myself, but you may well be able to walk away from it and live to tell the tale, as one of the earlier posters said. It is the combination of lack of experience and the o/b that could get you in the worst difficulty. [Snow Petrel grew up on his parents' cruising boat, and has an Antarctic trip under his belt, among other accomplishments.]

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Old 05-02-2016, 13:55   #48
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Re: Pro/Con of outboard for blue water cruising

Hi Appick! Yeah, though I am fine with my set-up, if I had an inboard I would probably not be taking it out for good. The boat's value will collapse and the cost of rebuilding a diesel should be less than a new outboard. I wouldn't glass over the through-hulls etc. for the simple reason either I or the next owner may want to put an engine back in. In my 29 though, not much space, so it is nice to have it. Some folks do sail around the world with no engine at all though. I knew a guy who stashed a little outboard in his lazarette to be removed only when he needed to get in/out of marina or harbor. I am sure though he was the type who was not in a hurry and didn't mind drifting on a windless day. One last point, my particular design of hull happens to accept the outboard on the stern fairly well. Most don't. I can control it easily, lift it easily (with old mainsail sheet and blocks to the pushpit,) and doesn't suffer too badly in a swell. I wouldn't be as happy with an outboard on a boat with more overhang.
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Old 05-02-2016, 14:27   #49
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Re: Pro/Con of outboard for blue water cruising

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Originally Posted by Reefmagnet View Post
Another tip if you install an outboard to the transom: allow for the boat's squat under power. This can be a reasonably significant variation from the static waterline and could explain why some installs are prone to being swamped.

Now a stupid question for those with no choice when it comes to ethanol adulterated automotive fuels. Is avgas a possible substitute?

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You must be near a sea-plane basin?
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Old 05-02-2016, 14:53   #50
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Re: Pro/Con of outboard for blue water cruising

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You must be near a sea-plane basin?
That could be an issue of course, but tote tanks is tote tanks...,

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Old 05-02-2016, 16:25   #51
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Re: Pro/Con of outboard for blue water cruising

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Compare that to a yanmar 2gm which uses about 1 litre per hour. The outboard is using 10 times the amount of fuel per hour. The yanmar 2gm replaced the 30hp atomic 4 on many sailboats. Also, a 30hp outboard is going to be a LOT of weight (and forces) on the transom.
What kind of comparison is that?

A 2gm puts out half the horsepower of a 30hp outboard.

It is rated at 16hp.

It also weighs 114 kg, plus 12kg for the sail drive, or 126kg/277lbs.


My 30HP Etec develops twice the horsepower at 30hp.

It weighs a total of 68kgs/150lbs.


It essentially puts out twice the power with half the weight compared directly to a 2gm20.

I'll gladly pay a few extra $//€ at the pump. I suppose I could start by using the extra $10,000 in my pocket I saved buying the outboard over the diesel.

That's 1600 hours of motoring with my outboard to break even with the price you pay for the Yanmar.. before you ever turn the key.
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Old 05-02-2016, 16:32   #52
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Re: Pro/Con of outboard for blue water cruising

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We get it Thomm, you really like the fact that you have an outboard and feel it was the best choice for you.

No necessarily. (slow business day)

(but) I'm not sure you are getting it so maybe I need to keep hammering away!!

My new (2011) outboard is much more efficient than the two diesels I had in the boat which were old, leaky, and smelled bad.

Also, let's keep in mind I'm on a 27' boat.

Think about it. A rebuilt 10-35 year old diesel or new 2011 4 stroke outboard with electronic ignition. Consider automobile engines over the same period.

This new 5hp outboard also pushes my boat much better than the old 10 hp diesel ever did. And the diesel weighed 352 lbs. The outboard 59lbs

There is no prop in the water with an outboard.
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Old 05-02-2016, 17:09   #53
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Re: Pro/Con of outboard for blue water cruising

Guys,

joining in this thread here a bit late

I have been contemplating going outboard to free up space

I have chatted with a few people cruising with an outboard on a small cruising boat. Last guy was Yves Gelinas. I was able to check out his side mount his Alberg 30, he admitted it was simply to get in and out of flat water...period.

I chatted with a friend who sailing his Triton to Azores and back. Met him in Oriental, NC prior to his Azores where he seemed pretty happy with 6hp sailpro. After that Azores cruise and him now cruising the Seattle area I asked him again how he like it...he simply said...his next boat would have a proper diesel. This sunk in and ultimately changed my mind of even considering an outboard of any sort

I have sailed with Thomm225. and his B27 did just fine with the outboard...could hang just fine with my A30 with a fairly fresh atomic 4. But I just could not see myself hanging an engine off the back. So i looked at Atomvoyages design....probably best outboard setup. Here it is in a sea way....not running but nice and safe.



After much thought and not wanting to hang an engine off the back or cut a huge hole in my boat for an outboard I decided to look for a diesel....I lucked out and found a low hour Beta 20. Had I not.... I may still be considering my outboard options.

There is no right or wrong. What worked for one guy may not for someone else. Thomm225 and I are a perfect example. Very similar boats, same cruising grounds...what works for him didnt work for me...its all in what you are comfortable with
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Old 05-02-2016, 17:13   #54
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Re: Pro/Con of outboard for blue water cruising

Like you said Jason, you lucked out and found one hell of an engine.

Didn't you say in your blog it had like really low hours on it. (170!)

Some of these guy are rebuilding engines with tons of hours thinking that's the answer.

Either way my next boat will be a bit over 30' so it will have a diesel.

Then the question is would I buy the boat I really want even though it has a saildrive?

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1983...s#.VrU7We_Smcw

Also, being an ex racer I wanted to put my money in new sails rather than a newer diesel.

I'm thinking you need to replace that main of yours also

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Old 05-02-2016, 17:27   #55
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Re: Pro/Con of outboard for blue water cruising

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Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
Like you said Jason, you lucked out and found one hell of an engine.

Didn't you say in your blog it had like really low hours on it. (170!)

Some of these guy are rebuilding engines with tons of hours thinking that's the answer.

Either way my next boat will be a bit over 30' so it will have a diesel.

Then the question is would I buy the boat I really want even though it has a saildrive?

1983 Wauquiez Gladiateur 33 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
yes, 171 to be exact

Yes, I agree...new sails are an order! am currently working with a sailmaker (who owns an Alberg30)on new sails. they are not cheap. But they will be quality and last a long while. The main I used when out sailing with you was from 1994

nice looking boat. If you want a hand sailing her down the bay..hit me up!
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Old 05-02-2016, 17:37   #56
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Re: Pro/Con of outboard for blue water cruising

Wow, thank you all for the input. On top of everything else, it's a lot to process, but this is a help in ruling out this and including that.
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Old 05-02-2016, 18:35   #57
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Re: Pro/Con of outboard for blue water cruising

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Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
fitzdority:

Snow Petrel told you more than you may realize. He said he upgraded from a sweep to an o/b. on a previous, small boat. He did not say he would have felt happy to cross the North Atlantic that way, but his instructions were to remove and stow the engine safely for ocean work, and then, sail the boat. That means that if the wind drops, you lie to the residual swell, and the sails slat, or you reef them to preserve them, or take them down and secure them till you get a breath of air. Or horse it out and apply it, saving back some fuel for harbor entry. It means you will be at the mercy of any current swirlies that could give you a problem entering some harbors, especially if the carb jet picks that moment to clog. So be prepared to anchor in vile conditions to save yourself and the boat. You will heave to to wait for weather, or just the waves to go down--forget being on any kind of schedule. I wouldn't want an o/b for that trip myself, but you may well be able to walk away from it and live to tell the tale, as one of the earlier posters said. It is the combination of lack of experience and the o/b that could get you in the worst difficulty. [Snow Petrel grew up on his parents' cruising boat, and has an Antarctic trip under his belt, among other accomplishments.]

ann
Thanks Ann, you've read between the lines of my post very accurately, yes I quite enjoyed drifting about reading a book waiting for wind, at least for a day or so... Not many other people seem to enjoy this, they slowly go mad, its not fun being aboard while crew start to lose the plot!

I also remember being stuck in port for a few days with very light winds, knowing my outboard wouldn't cope with the swells just outside the harbour safely. I knew if I could get offshore I'd pick up enough wind to drift down the coast, but I decided it was two dangerous to attempt the harbour mouth with light winds and a badly cavitating outboard.

A long shaft outboard would have worked much better, but it wouldn't have gone on my dinghy as well, and would have weighed much more. Id have been happy with the setup most places offshore, the issues were more inshore, especially in strong tides or big swell.

But on the whole for that boat I had fun (and I've forgotten the bad parts now!), it was a good compromise for me. Essentially I saw myself as being engine-less, except I had a little kicker to help with flat calms and the odd tricky berth entry. I'd had a few years practice with no engine around cook strait, with its nasty tides and winds so I was pretty comfortable as long as there was some wind, but I was sick of having to scull the last few miles into an anchorage on dusk as the decoupling boundary and/or failing seabreeze kills all the wind.


Note the little 3.5 with its cowling off due to persistant carby issues! OLD fuel..

Once you start getting over thirty feet on a mono the issues start to compound, bigger heavier outboards, and longer and longer legs being needed. It can be done easily on some boats (ie wide sugar scoop sterns, no windvane) but it takes a lot of work to get the setup right on others (ie counter stern, canoe stern, and narrow sterns), and it's still not going to work well in nasty sea states, so you have to be comfortable sailing the boat in nasty weather into most places, or waiting until the conditions are right.

If you approach it as an improved engine-less setup it's going to work well. if you see an engine as a vital safety asset, an outboard will likely let you down sooner than an inboard, but then even inboards aren't infallible and will let you down one day, so best learn how to use those sails and anchors properly...

What does make sense is if you have an older less reliable inboard (or even with a new engine) is to put an outboard bracket on the stern so you can use your dinghy outboard in a calm. Its much more effective on the mothership than on the dinghy as a sidetow.

I had a setup like that on snowpetrel 1, and it was quite handy. The bracket lifted right up to the stored position at rail level, and dropped into the water position in one quick action. I'd sometimes use the 2 HP outboard to get out of a tight berth in light conditions. Much more control in astern with the outboard. And it pushed all 8 tonnes at about 3.5 knots in flat conditions, given a bit of a run up. It had about zero stopping power though.

I toyed with putting an outboard on my 40 foot Snowpetrel 2 when the Bukh 20dv died, but got a secondhand 30hp nanni 4.110he diesel instead. I'm happy with this, but I'll put a bracket on the stern sometime, and in the future I'll look into electric when the battery tech matures.
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Old 05-02-2016, 19:00   #58
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Re: Pro/Con of outboard for blue water cruising

So I hesitate to post this shot because, even though the outboard works fine on my boat, I have to confess it looks ugly as sin hanging out there! (I do have a cover for it though.) But since Snowpetrel showed his I figured I'd throw mine in too! The lever arms on this 40 year-old custom-made hoist are long enough that when it swings down the long shaft is submerged to the correct level and I don't have much trouble with it coming out in swells. I think it's like Snowpetrel says, if you think of your boat as a sailboat first, and you are comfortable sailing it full time, then any kind of an engine is helpful! If you are accustomed to motoring for hours if the wind drops below 5 knots, or relying on powering your way out of trouble, then an outboard will likely seem a very disagreeable option.
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Old 05-02-2016, 19:42   #59
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Re: Pro/Con of outboard for blue water cruising

I use a Nissan 5 -four stroke for my inflatable and since i need a place to stow it anyway I mounted on the transom. I'm so glad I did often times when I'm motoring against the current I use both the 1 cylinder yanmar inboard and the outboard gives me about 2 more Kts. I bought it used 4 years ago and take it to the dealer every year for service.It always starts and runs perfect .The outboard runs about 8 hrs on 3.5 gal. I normally keep the dinghy deflated and stowed below when traveling
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Old 05-02-2016, 19:53   #60
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Re: Pro/Con of outboard for blue water cruising

Just for info, here is a video from atomvoyages showing an Alberg 30 with the inboard removed and the outboard installation in the lazarette. Looks pretty nifty to me.
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