Pre-Survey

[dupek]

I can not locate a info of self survey. I saw a thread that explain of what to look for before hiring a expert.

[barnakiel]

If you feel you need an expert then probably a self survey is not something you will undertake.

Is the boat big and complicated? Do you have any relevant skills and knowledge?

I think if you talk more specific issues, people here will be able to adres many if not most of them.

Cheers,
barnie

[dupek]

I found good web site Sailingmates Sailboat maintenance and download the booklet in pdf. I do not want to make any competition to experts, just want to eliminate some, before I pay for survey.
Save some money. Looking at 3 boats and survey each of them, will run up some bucks. My knowledge about boats (sailboats) is very limited. I know that they can float and sink. I spend a lot of hours reading about on this, and other forums, but never been in one. I do know how to swim and I am good in it. Good chance that I can float better that boat and sink faster.

[S/V Illusion]

This might be what you are thinking of:
http://www.sailingmates.com/boatbuy86-1A.pdf

Most of us who were new to boats once will probably all agree that simply following some checklist like this is foolish. Despite what you might consider good diy skills and some basic boat knowledge, you, like all the rest of us, have no clue what you will be looking at being new.

You might think hiring a surveyor is a bad investment but the converse is potentially far more costly. Any surveyor will do a cursory inspection for less than the full survey cost.

[ShaunJ]

Originally Posted by dupek

I can not locate a info of self survey. I saw a thread that explain of what to look for before hiring a expert.

Dupek,

If you have any friend that have boats, you may want to get their help. They may not know everything about boats but they could lead you in the right direction or at least give you their opinion. That way, you will eliminate a few boats before you pay for a survey.


ShaunJ

[delmarrey]

Originally Posted by dupek

I can not locate a info of self survey. I saw a thread that explain of what to look for before hiring a expert.

If you find a boat you like. Take some pictures & get the manufacturer, year, a spec sheet if you can and the price. Then come back here to post it on the forum and well tear it apart without even touching it.

And if it doesn't get too many negative responses, then it might be worth a survey!

[ShaunJ]

Originally Posted by delmarrey

If you find a boat you like. Take some pictures & get the manufacturer, year, a spec sheet if you can and the price. Then come back here to post it on the forum and well tear it apart without even touching it.

And if it doesn't get too many negative responses, then it might be worth a survey!

Sound Advice....
You will defiantly find out what everybody thinks with this approach.

ShaunJ

[Bergovoy]

i know a bunch about houses and commercial building and stuff.. i know how long it takes to fix / build things.. i can tell you how long it takes to paint something.. i can tell you how long it takes to install a circuit and how much it will cost..

I can tell you how much it cost to buy an air conditioner and how long it will take to install ductwork...

but, i have no experience with marine stuff... I have no idea how much a cushion cost, or headliner.. or an anchor, or a PFD, or a fish finder, or a rolelr furler.. nor can i tell you how long it takes to install one..

I have no idea how long it takes to clean and inspect keel bolts, or how long it takes to replace a prop shaft...

a boat survey will tell me me a TO DO LIST... and then i can price out and get estimates for all the things on that list...

the survey wil lidentify which items are more important / critical, and needing to be repaired ASAP...

The only thing i would like to find is a CURSORY survey/inspection... i would be glad to pay $50 to a pro to review teh ad, speak with the seller/broker, review pictures and info and tell me to go forward or move on...


I would pay $100 to have someone look at a boat and tell me whether or not i should make an offer andor get a pre purchase survey...

and then I can have them look at a several boats, and then I can 'whittle' it down to one boat and then get the boat hauled and a real survey performed...

but finding this service is impossible...

I guess I will end up doing what everyone suggested.. make my move, and then hang out on docks and meet friends and go out with them and end up finding a boat 'by chance', or by just running around...

[David_Old_Jersey]

Funnily enough I was thinking that a draft (blank) survey would be of use - and not just for new boat owners.

Agree that not going to be perfect - and the less knowledge the more ??? marks - but gotta start somewhere. and up to prospective owner to go off and try and fill in the blanks???

The good news is that most you will learn is transferable to the next boat - and each boat seen in person adds something to the personal knowledge bank. starting from scratch I would view not only those boats I am tempted by, but also a few real doer uppers - to get a idea what could be underneath a nice coat of paint or some new cushions / what you want to be avoiding...........

Also informative to look at old surveys (in general and for specific boats) to get an idea of what is looked and the likely answers - can also see what is based on (it's a seacock of unknown age, could be orginal, maybe not? - but no way to tell - but the handle turns so that = "servicable", but recomended that it be removed and rebedded, with the hose replaced and double clipped..........and I haven't even seen the boat .........you can pay me later ). In the absence of destructive testing a lot is based on experiance / judgement / guesswork (and covering own backside)............might also want to read the disclaimers to decide how much a survey can be relied upon

Always better to do looking around into dark corners and asking the hard questions (of Vendor and self) as well as properly costing repairs / refurb / enhancement before the bills are all yours. IMO can't beat getting organised with something like an Excel spreadsheet - the totals can be very informative.

[zoombats]

I have worked in the industry, sailed offshore,maintained large wooden yachts and even worked as a builder. I wouldn't undertake my own survey of a yacht I was buying for myself because you can't be "third party", unbiased and will not be respected by the vendor or the broker. The surveyors job is to point out all potential problems but mostly to give a fair market value based on inventory, structural condition and safety gear etc,. I recently conducted a pre-survey on a 46 footer that I am negotiating to buy. I went with a moisture meter and a flexi camera and other tools and spent about three hours looking indeapth . I later had a surveyor conduct a thorough survey for many reasons. Between the two of us, we complimented each others findings and were able to concur findings with each other. The surveyor is working for you the client. In my case I was looking at the boat in a far East port and needed an evaluation in a market that was foreign to me. I also need a survey for insurance purposes in order to keep the boat in the marina while I returned to Canada. I did compliment my experience by purchasing an excellent book on conducting marine surveys which gave an extra insight into things to look for but also to know what questions to ask of my surveyor I had hired. I am still negotiating for the boat but wouldn't hesitate to hire a survey again on another purchase. A good example would be the discovery of an osmosis problem will influence the purchase price if you understand the costs of repair in the place of that purchase.

[dupek]

Reading those pdf file give to me some info of what and where to look for trouble. Then I will make decision to hire a expert or walk away.Having moisture meter will be good idea, but that "thing" is expensive.Good way to learn about boats too. Never had intention to eliminate survey, just do not wanted to survey every boat, if I can spot a trouble.
Thank you all for the input.

[ncarter]

If you dont know that much about boats,just remember this: Everything will be expensive & Its a "buyers market" .

[DWT]

I looked at a cat 5 years ago. It was approx. 250 miles away. I put the required 10% down, called a surveyor and drove up to be with him on the day of the inspection. To have gone thru that experience was priceless. I could not of got it out of a book. I now know the process, the things to look for before making an offer, how to deal with a surveyor, read his result of the boat and read an engine oil analysis.
The boat was 180,000, I spent approx. $2,000 a small amount for the cost of what I would of spent for that learning experience and again would not of got it from a book.

[GordMay]

Excerpted from http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...lboat-598.html

A NOTE ON SELF-SURVEYING:
I recommend a professional survey, prior to purchase. You will, of course, vet the boat yourself, prior to swallowing that expense. There are a number of “small things” that can indicate much about the boat’s design, construction, and maintenance. Some of these will relate to MY particular design & construction biases, and apply to boats advertised in good or better shape (‘project’ boats will differ).
In no particular order:

GENERAL PRINCIPLES:

There should be no inexplicable impairment. You should satisfy yourself that you understand the cause of any observed deficiencies, and can evaluate the necessity, difficulty & cost of remediation. ie: Stress cracks in gellcoat? Maybe a big problem, maybe not. Do not accept any “mysteries” - they’ll always come back to bite you!

Double the estimated cost of repairs, when valuing the boat, or negotiating it’s purchase price. Everything is (at least) twice as difficult or expensive as it first appears.

The general condition of a boat speaks volumes about it’s past treatment. The fit & finish of owner improvements (very often they are not) is another good indicator. An abundance of poorly conceived and/or executed details,. Each of which may be insignificant, could be a “deal breaker”. If I don’t like what I can see, what does it tell me about what I cannot see? Lots of small clues (circumstantial?) make for convincing evidence.

Take written notes about everything you observe. Give your surveyor a copy of your complete notes, indicating any particular concerns (especially those that require further investigation and/or explanation).

Hull-Deck joints:

An outward bent flange connection is subject to all sorts of damage, and indicates a builder focused on cheap construction - look for other “shortcuts”. The same holds true for a screwed & bonded connection.

Look for an inside shoebox connection, with accessible fastenings - bolted & backed (@about 4" centres). Check inside at the upper section of hull & nuts etc., seeking signs of water intrusion. If so - go it’s (almost always) impracticable to repair or upgrade the hull-deck joint.

RIGGING & MAST-STEP ETC:

Check the chainplates for signs of leakage, corrosion, movement or other deficiency.

Inside chainplates that penetrate the deck are best located on a raised pad, or penetrate the deck at a sloped (canted) location - so that there is NEVER standing water at this location. Standing water will always penetrate a chainplate at some point.
Check for a VERY robust connection - the chainplates must be solidly connected to the structure.

I don’t like outside, hull mounted chainplates. Notwithstanding, the hull must be reinforced at this location, and there should be a clear loading path (someone help me here, I’ve forgotten the terminology) from rig to structure. If you are uncertain (or unhappy with) of how the rig loads are transferred and accepted, there may be a big problem.

Any distress at a deck penetration (ie: keel-stepped mast) could indicate serious problems.

Check all fastenings for corrosion and gesticulation. Dissimilar metals, such as stainless bolts in aluminum masts/booms etc are best isolated, and migh show aluminum oxide. Any “ovalling” of bolt-holes, or surface abrasion (base material) will evidence movement. Why was it moving? These type of deficiencies are often easy to fix, but may indicate the P.O.’s competence or thoroughness, and even the original build-quality.

This is getting much longer than I anticipated [remember, double your estimate ], so I’ll just close for now, with a few quick little tell-tales:

Are rigging pins locked, shackles wired, batteries secured, bilges clean, etc. If the owner doesn’t take care of the little things ...?

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Excerpted from http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...lboat-598.html

(...)

A gordeous quote. THX!

My 2 cents:

One thing I learned from our surveyor: hoist the boat and store dry. Come next day (early, if hot climate) and look closely at all joints: thruhulls, log/echo senders, keel to hull, rudder attachment, ruder foil, etc.

If the hull is dry but there are wet spots round the aforementioned places - might be a sign that water penetrated there - investigate each and every case.

b.