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Old 22-08-2006, 18:10   #16
Bob Norson
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Greetings Chris31415

Not good signs BUT you say you are looking for a project boat...so lets go further. The design is a popular one and assuming the steel work was done well enough to begin with, she could justify further work but it really is hard to judge. I am not alone in chronicaly underestimating the amount of work in a steel repair.

Since you can get to that low point in the bilge (thats good) can you determine the condition of the steel by removing the water and eye balling? or touching/feeling/brail method? Does it have a bubbling type surface, especially near corners or frame or stringer junctions? Or is the paint system down there in good shape? Where did the water come from? What was it's path? What damage did it do on the way? Did the builder put 'limber holes' in stringers to prevent water from sitting in corners? The corrosion that you find in that environment tends to be a combination of atmospheric and electrolitic... so you find sheets of scale that seem relitively harmless covering the real nasties that I call 'worm-holes' that can penetrate right through the steel in tunnels of a 1/4 inch or 5-10 mm.

Any place that you can see or feel that the rust has scaled.. or 'grown' should be assumed to mean steel repair... but hope it only means removing the scale and treating/painting. (lucky)

If the fit out is very basic or crude, that can actually be a plus if it means you don't hesitate in tearing it out behind spots you can see outside around ports and such that indicate repair.

Repairing a paint system that was done poorly at the start and now complicated by repair required for steel work is a big job. But it has to be done to perfection or your work investment is in jeapardy.

Do you have a place to do the work that is cheap? If the one or two month project turns into a six month or worse thing, will the mooring, slip fees or whatever, break you?

Steel is cheap, it's the rent, equipment and paint that can hurt. You are asking good questions so I will assume you have a good idea of the market value for the boat. The rule of thumb that we apply to these things... now that we are experienced... I give an estimate of time (which = $) and my wife, Kay doubles it, then we haggle and compromise and I try like hell to not embarras myself by going over the adjusted schedule!

We have found good methods for treating weathered steel without blasting, which can be prohibitive depending on your location, and refined our steel patching process so the minimal time is spent on the hard.

If you have steel working skills now, or are not afraid to self teach, no matter what, you can do it. BUT SHOULD YOU! It's a value judgement but I assume any steel work is twice as involved as it looks, and like I say... I'm the optimist!

There is good source for info on this forum for steel work like Alan Wheeler, so if you do take it on and it's a big job you aren't without resource.

As evidenced by this rambling statement, this subject has been on my mind anyway. By later today I will have a tech article posted on my web site that will give an idea of what it looks like when it all goes pear shape but how you can win in spite of it.

I'll notify here when it's done. It may cure you of steel forever.. or encourage you because yours couldn't be that bad!

Cheers
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Old 22-08-2006, 23:07   #17
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Steel Maybe, Engine?

So the steel is a possible.
Now I find that a hard to start engine is a sign of trouble with rebuilds going from $3000 to $15000 and repowers $30,000 to $33,000!
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Old 23-08-2006, 00:07   #18
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Greetings Chris

A hard starting engine (diesel) is often a result of low compression. Worn out. Some are easier to repair than others. I don't know the engine in the boat. Looking at the web site, though I couldn't get the thumbnails to work roll over, it looks like it could have possibilities. No fitout means easy to get to stuff and the launch date is pretty recent. Seems more likely then, that the steel needs work but maybe not much/any repair/patching. A re-power with todays market for labour parts could be prohibitive alright... Unless you could do it yourself. If you are contemplating it still and you can get the motor going at all, you might take note of the oil pressure after it has warmed up. If the oil pressure is good then a top end rebuild is feasable perhaps. If the oil pressure is low then it is likely to be a throw away. If the boat doesn't have a manual for the motor to give that info, the dealer should know what the specified range is.

later


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Old 23-08-2006, 02:16   #19
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Where there's smoke....

I'm told to look for smoke at start up and after the engine has run for awhile.
One means something and one means something else. (valves, bearings, rings?)
Together they are real bad.
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Old 23-08-2006, 02:34   #20
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Done!! Big job getting the page done that I was working on.

Chris, I think your boat is new enough not to be as bad as mine was but if you are curious to see how rotten a surveyor can be.. see www.thecoastalpassage.com/rust.html

On the engine. Exhaust smoke can be caused by bad injectors which is more a minor service issue. I can't tell enough from your description, nor am I knowledgable enough to provide real advice there. The oil pressure thing is an important point though. If it's bad, you probably don't need to go any further, chances are it's knackered. If it's good then getting more info on the other stuff may be worth the effort.

Your call skipper.

Cheers
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Old 24-08-2006, 16:58   #21
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My new Boat...

When my cheque clears next Wednesday I should have a new boat.
The surveyor said that there were no structural issues in the steel work but I do have a lot of wire brushing, sanding, priming and painting ahead of me.
The engine turned out to be a Ford slant six 3.54 litre 87hp 2402E. There were no major problems save a new oil cooler and an injector needing reseating. Lots of minor problems.
I do not think that parts are available for this engine so if it goes it will mean a repower.
They do have a reputation of being hard to start so it looks like I need a big battery and practice. It started very easily when warm.
First major job is to touch up the paint below the water line replace some anodes and antifoul.
Any suggestions appreciated.
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Old 24-08-2006, 17:38   #22
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Because of the relitively recent vintage of the vessel, I think your surveyor is right. As long as you know you have work to do it sounds like a good deal! I would give attention soon to where the water was getting into your boat though. Steel boats should be bone dry. Air compressors are cheap anymore and air powered tools are far better and eaiser to remove rust scale to prep for paint.

Paint under water failing? All the way to the steel? In sheets or small round blister looking?

Imperfect anode size/location can cause paint failure. If in doubt you may find a paint supplier or marine electronics person with a "silver, silver chloride half cell" that can indicate if the anode arrangement is appropriate for your boat. Shouldn't be a big expense. ($50?) Better to find out before you spend $ and time on new paint.

If the paint failure is simply because of poor application or preperation... you might consider just blasting and re-doing. Not much future in repairing rubbish. I have had good luck with wattle 'univeral EP' epoxy primer.. works well, easy recoat and cheap! I use wattle undercoats as well though my personal prefference for anti foul has been altex AF 3000.

there are many good paints on the market.

cheers and congratulations!
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Old 24-08-2006, 18:08   #23
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Isn't any one going to point out the obvious bigger problems here, i.e. that this is a really awful design to begin with, or that its ballast is simply iron pellets in oil and oil bath, or that the launch date was 2000 but there was no explanation of the when the keel was laid, which is really significant in home built steel boats because the hull can sit exposed to the weather for decades at a time, and because amatuers rarely seal properly under frames allowing the hulls to totally rust out invisibly.

On the other hand the engine is a Ford Lehman and parts are readily available for them in the U.S.

Respectfully,

Jeff
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Old 25-08-2006, 16:05   #24
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Old 25-08-2006, 18:32   #25
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For some reason I have missed following this thread.
Chris, those old Fords are good reliable blocks of Iron. Yes they are hard to start cold and certainly you WILL see some blue smoke at intitial start up. Don't worry about that. Do worry if you see large amounts of smoke after it's hot. However, these are one of the cheaper engines to rebuild, with the major issue of lifting the head and the block out of the boat due to weight.
Bob is spot on with anodes being a possible issue to paint problems. But if I read between the lines, the paint issue may also be due to anodes being wasted to nothing? This will cause areas of shiney steel that will rust almost before your eyes once out of the water. It's electrolosys. Clean and Inpsect your Prop!!!!!!!!Check for large area's of "pink'ish" colour. You may have odd spots, njothing to worry about, but large sections mean a new prop. It's de-zincifictation due to electrolysys.
Hey, I thought you would have gone FC mate. How come the steel???
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Old 19-08-2007, 02:55   #26
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Reflections on my survey...

A year down the track a few reflections on what I got from my survey.

He said that the hull and rigging were basicly sound and this seems to have been true.

Some comment on how big a project it was going to be would have been a good idea.

Where the surveyor (and most of the other opinions that I got) were not on the money was with the engine.

The engine turned out to be an obscure Ford in very worn condition. Oil poured out through a gap in a gasket, and I found very little in the engine when I eventually checked.

There was, however, a large amount in the bilge that took months of dirty messy work to get rid of.

I wasted pretty close to $3,000 and nine months trying to get it to work properly. It never did.

I now have very jaundiced view of old engines.
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Old 19-08-2007, 04:48   #27
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Ford Lehman (Sabre) Engine Manuals:
Operators Manual:
http://www.kp44.org/ftp/FordLehmanOperatorsManual.pdf

PARTS:
http://www.kp44.org/ftp/FordLehmanMa...Appendix_B.pdf
&
http://www.kp44.org/ftp/FordLehmanBa...Appendix_A.pdf
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