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Old 04-01-2015, 20:22   #61
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Re: Plumb Bows, Slab Sides, and Wet Decks

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Originally Posted by Terra Nova View Post
I think you have that reversed. And you mention twin wheels like they are actually desirable. Twin wheels are the compromise you must accept if you insist on carrying such great beam so far aft. Otherwise 1 large wheel would suffice.
True in what regards racing but then is not a question of insisting in "carrying such great beam so far aft", it is just the boats that are faster and work better with hulls designed that way and in what regards racing efficiency is what matters.

Regarding cruising the twin wheels offer more advantages. A big wheel makes the passage forward difficult, not only in what regards coming in an out of the boat but regarding the helmsman reaching the forward winches, specially if the boat is heeled.
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Old 04-01-2015, 20:34   #62
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Re: Plumb Bows, Slab Sides, and Wet Decks

I'd prefer a tiller, especially if single-handing.
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Old 04-01-2015, 20:39   #63
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Re: Plumb Bows, Slab Sides, and Wet Decks

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Originally Posted by Terra Nova View Post
I think you have that reversed. And you mention twin wheels like they are actually desirable. Twin wheels are the compromise you must accept if you insist on carrying such great beam so far aft. Otherwise 1 large wheel would suffice.
Actually, I personally find twin wheels anything but desirable and the most sensible option as far as I am concerned is a well-balanced boat with a tiller.

I prefer reducing hull weight aft and so I am not too enthusiastic about carrying the maximum beam all the way either on a cruising boat. Next thing you end up having to make up for this by allocating weight forward and it all increases pitching inertia.

When it comes to Pogo, a specific design feature that works in a certain way on a lightweight racer is unlikely to deliver the same results on a cruiser, this is what I meant when I said back to blunt and fat forward, but there should be room in the middle depending on displacement. Honestly, I am not a fan of "extraordinary" hull shapes. I have found that the best sea boats are a subtle balance of many parameters that all contribute to this result and trying to go "all the way" in one direction or another seldom delivers anything extraordinary.
A classic example of this is the "maximum waterline length" myth. Look how many racers designed this way were later extended astern with a sugar scoop to get rid of the drag and water boiling behind the transom at lower speeds. They were just turned into longer, less extraordinary boats without the "maximum waterline" and sailed better.
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Old 04-01-2015, 23:39   #64
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Re: Plumb Bows, Slab Sides, and Wet Decks

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Regarding cruising the twin wheels offer more advantages. A big wheel makes the passage forward difficult, not only in what regards coming in an out of the boat but regarding the helmsman reaching the forward winches, specially if the boat is heeled.
Single wheels neither have to take the full width of the cockpit nor be located further away from forward winches, and they do provide much better protection in rough seas, all other things being equal.
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Old 04-01-2015, 23:58   #65
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Re: Plumb Bows, Slab Sides, and Wet Decks

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Single wheels neither have to take the full width of the cockpit nor be located further away from forward winches, and they do provide much better protection in rough seas, all other things being equal.
Well, in some sense this is true, but with a very wide beam at the wheel location, a small central wheel does not allow the helmsman to see forward well when heeled, nor to see the tell tales, etc. Dual wheels allows the driver to choose between windward and leeward positions, both with good visibility for the important things... I like'em on those beamy-bummed boats!

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Old 05-01-2015, 00:09   #66
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Re: Plumb Bows, Slab Sides, and Wet Decks

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Well, in some sense this is true, but with a very wide beam at the wheel location, a small central wheel does not allow the helmsman to see forward well when heeled, nor to see the tell tales, etc. Dual wheels allows the driver to choose between windward and leeward positions, both with good visibility for the important things... I like'em on those beamy-bummed boats!

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Old 05-01-2015, 06:12   #67
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Re: Plumb Bows, Slab Sides, and Wet Decks

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Single wheels neither have to take the full width of the cockpit nor be located further away from forward winches, and they do provide much better protection in rough seas, all other things being equal.
You can only be kidding. On a modern efficient boats with a large stern a wheel has to be huge to allow sitting on the side of the boat where it is more comfortable to sail when the boat is heeled. And how can the wheel not be far away from the forward winches, the ones one uses to reef the boat that normally are over the cabin? It has to be a very small sailboat not be far away
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Old 05-01-2015, 06:13   #68
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Re: Plumb Bows, Slab Sides, and Wet Decks

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I'd prefer a tiller, especially if single-handing.
Yes probably a better option in what regards reaching all winches, but then on modern hulls on bigger boats you have two tillers, not one, to be able to steer the boat comfortably sitting on the side.
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Old 05-01-2015, 06:16   #69
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Re: Plumb Bows, Slab Sides, and Wet Decks

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I like 2 wheels on a fat bottom girl too, just sayin'!
Hummm, not fat at all....just not skinny, not a man's ass but a girl's ass, beamier, if you know what I mean.
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Old 05-01-2015, 08:57   #70
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Re: Plumb Bows, Slab Sides, and Wet Decks

I see no reason either for dual tillers. A hiking stick makes this utterly unnecessary.
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Old 05-01-2015, 09:45   #71
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Re: Plumb Bows, Slab Sides, and Wet Decks

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I see no reason either for dual tillers. A hiking stick makes this utterly unnecessary.
On a 40ft modern boat it would have to be a biiiiig stick, so big that is not practical. Even 35ft in some cases are already too big for only one ruder. If that was not the case they would not make boats with to rudders: Why spend the extra money for nothing?
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Old 05-01-2015, 12:00   #72
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Re: Plumb Bows, Slab Sides, and Wet Decks

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On a 40ft modern boat it would have to be a biiiiig stick, so big that is not practical. Even 35ft in some cases are already too big for only one ruder. If that was not the case they would not make boats with to rudders: Why spend the extra money for nothing?
Some sense yes, but the boat length has nothing to do with that. Beam aft, low draft, open transom and a dinghy bay btw the rudders have more
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Old 05-01-2015, 12:25   #73
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Re: Plumb Bows, Slab Sides, and Wet Decks

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Some sense yes, but the boat length has nothing to do with that. Beam aft, low draft, open transom and a dinghy bay btw the rudders have more
We were speaking about modern boats with big transoms and yes,length has to do with that. For that type of boat more length means more beam.

Some use only one tiller only for economic reasons, for instance the cruising Pogo 12.50, but the 40ft Pogo racer has two tillers. They are more efficient, allowing a smaller stick and make sailing easier.

The rectified that on Pogo cruising line and the new Pogo cruising 36 comes with two tillers too.

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Old 05-01-2015, 13:01   #74
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Re: Plumb Bows, Slab Sides, and Wet Decks

Plenty of TP52's with tillers and tiller extensions. I have a tiller with a tiller extension on my 40 foot cruising boat. Completely practical in every way.

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Old 05-01-2015, 13:15   #75
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Re: Plumb Bows, Slab Sides, and Wet Decks

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
On a 40ft modern boat it would have to be a biiiiig stick, so big that is not practical. Even 35ft in some cases are already too big for only one ruder. If that was not the case they would not make boats with to rudders: Why spend the extra money for nothing?
Single or twin rudders is not a matter of boat size. If you carry a lot of waterline beam a long way aft, you end up lifting your single rudder half out of the water when the hull heels.
Technically, twin rudders allow the immersed one to work more vertically while more deeply immersed, so it can be made smaller and the one mostly up in the air doesn't drag much. It is more efficient if the stern shape is suitable.
The catch is that the windward one is very exposed wave impacts and any junk afloat pushed aside by the bow wave loves to clip it too. It is a configuration a lot more prone to damage than a single blade in line with the keel. I would have designed my boat with twin rudders if it hadn't been for unlimited ocean cruising. Single rudder limits what you can do with stern shape.

On cruising yachts, i.e. heavier boats than racers, adopting racing stern hull shapes mainly results in more wetted surface and more penalties than benefits in most common sailing conditions. They don't go fast enough, they don't have canting keels to develop the power etc.
Look at the stern quarter view of the Pogo 36 in an earlier post, see how curved the hull is aft: there is very little beam at the waterline aft. Keeping it "flat and wide" would have caused enormous problems with heel. Looks and marketing often have more to do with shapes than anything else and the real challenge can be making it look a certain way without actually screwing it up.
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