Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 17-09-2009, 06:37   #46
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Boston, MA
Boat: Bristol 38.8
Posts: 1,625
Well, Nick, your boat sounds very seraworthy. But everything is relative. You need bigger shrouds because the forces on your sails and the weight of your spars is mucxh greater than on my boat. I doubt if yours are less likely to break. And what happpens if you have to cut away some of that heavy wire? It takes a much bigger wire cutter that's harder to handle... and so on and so on.

You would have an advantage on a lee shore, I'll grant you that. You can go faster. But I suspect that outrunning storms is something that happens more in the literature of heavy weather sailing than it does in fact. There was a thread on this topic awhile back.
__________________

__________________
Curmudgeon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-09-2009, 08:46   #47
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 17,314
"...Well, I'll let others more experienced in survival conditions comment on how likely it is to get pitchpoled when properly hove to with a parachute..."

I do not think you can be 'hove to with a a parachute', it is rather: either / or. Still, the point is, with the bigger boat you DO NOT HAVE to be hove to, nor deploy the para - in the same conditions you can just keep on moving. And keeping her going is probably much safer than any passive attitude - because you keep steerage, and because you keep a 'go for it' attitude, rather than 'she will take care of herself and her crew'. Because she won't.

"...As for a heavier boat being slower in all conditions, that's irrelevant when the wind goes force 8 or above. At that point you are trying to avoid the storm's kinetic energy and go as slow as you can, not as fast as you can...."

I am afraid I have different experiences - F8 and above I still keep on going (I will most often run, unless there is a land in the lee), and I believe avoiding the storm's kinetics is best done by trying to run, and run FAST - the energy of the moving body of water is related to its relative speed and the only way to reduce this speed is to keep on moving in the same direction as the waves and as fast as possible - close to the wave's own speed.

b.
__________________

__________________
barnakiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-09-2009, 10:41   #48
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Boston, MA
Boat: Bristol 38.8
Posts: 1,625
The paraanchor helps keep the bow at the proper angle to the waves when you are hove to. It also slows the speed of your drift.

I do not like surfing on big waves coming up from astern. Too easy to broach, too much rolling. Also, when you run with the storm, it stays stormy longer, since you are moving right along with the weather.
__________________
Curmudgeon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-09-2009, 14:05   #49
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 17,314
" ...The paraanchor helps keep the bow at the proper angle to the waves when you are hove to. It also slows the speed of your drift...."

With all respect, I completely disagree: I understand being hove to as having the main and jib work against each other, the tiller lashed (often to the lee) and the boat staying anything between 30-60 degs, making very little leeway. As a contrast, the para is used when the sails are down (maybe a bit of riding sail up or part of a mizz on a ketch) and the para keeping the boat bows to the waves. I do not think theses two techniques can be mixed. I think being hove to is a nice technique in normal conditions or in a brief storm. The para, so I believe, is deployed in more extreme weather.

"... I do not like surfing on big waves coming up from astern. Too easy to broach, too much rolling. Also, when you run with the storm, it stays stormy longer, since you are moving right along with the weather...."

I do not think you CAN surf in the design you said you have. To use this technique one needs a light, fast boat designed to be surfed and stay under control in such conditions. On the other hand, I sailed many times in pretty bad conditions on a design similar to yours, and we never broached once (OK, I have plenty of racing experience but my mate is a fine built girl with next to nothing experience). So I believe it is easier to broach when sailing slow - because there is not enough force on the rudder to correct the course when the boat might otherwise get out of control.

I know it my sound bit like I am a no-no-no type of guy but it is not the case. I simply have different experiences behind me and I probably sailed in different type of conditions than Curmudgeon.

b.
__________________
barnakiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-09-2009, 14:20   #50
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic de Beer View Post
Hi Shoe.
In 1986 I set out from South Africa, with my then wife and 15 month old son, "on a 3 year circumnavigation" 23 years later I find myself in Nova Scotia, Canada.
Plan on a 3 year trip, enjoy life along the way and let life and the wind lead where it wants you to go :-)

Fantastic!
Either your boat is very slow and you will need another 92 years to complete the circle, or you have circled the Earth quite a few times already
__________________
Shoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-09-2009, 14:30   #51
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by KairosKona View Post
Having trouble with the link. Go to yachtworld.com and enter Malo in the search bar. Look for the 2005 Malo 48 in Portland, OR at Discovery Yachts

David

Thanks for the link. Nice boat.
__________________
Shoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-09-2009, 15:33   #52
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Boston, MA
Boat: Bristol 38.8
Posts: 1,625
No, Barnakiel, you can heave to with just a reefed main or a trysail. You really need to watch the Pardeys' video on storm tactics (or read their book) to understand what works on a boat like mine, which is quite similar to theirs (although I have an engine).

As for surfing, on Labor Day weekend I surfed from Cuttyhunk to Block Island in 30 knots of wind. It's a 30 mile trip and we made it in a little under 4 1/2 hours hours flying just the jennie on a broad reach. My hull speed is 6.7 knots and we averaged over 7 knots for the trip, although we did use the motor for the last hour.
__________________
Curmudgeon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-09-2009, 17:09   #53
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 17,314
"... No, Barnakiel, you can heave to with just a reefed main or a trysail. You really need to watch the Pardeys' video on storm tactics (or read their book) to understand what works on a boat like mine, which is quite similar to theirs (although I have an engine). ..."

I still do not see how you can mix heaving to with using the para at the same time. I will have a look at the video when I get a copy, perhaps it will explain.

"...As for surfing, on Labor Day weekend I surfed from Cuttyhunk to Block Island in 30 knots of wind. It's a 30 mile trip and we made it in a little under 4 1/2 hours hours flying just the jennie on a broad reach. My hull speed is 6.7 knots and we averaged over 7 knots for the trip, although we did use the motor for the last hour...."

You sailed fast, not surfed.

b.
__________________
barnakiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-09-2009, 17:48   #54
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Boston, MA
Boat: Bristol 38.8
Posts: 1,625
Believe me, we did quite a bit of surfing. My hand was sore for a week from gripping the tiller. I do not trust the autopilot in windy conditions with a following sea.
__________________
Curmudgeon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-09-2009, 20:06   #55
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 17,314
Problem with the design, or bad sail trim. My (similar design) boat steers with 'two fingers' on the tiller in all conditions, provided she has the right amount of sail up. But we never sail broad reaches under the genoa alone (rather will go with reefed and flattened main and full high cut jib). Or with the assym - but this only when the wind is below 20 knots and not gusty. With the assym it is difficult to go by the windvane though, unless one of us handles the sheet of the assym and trims for the apparent.

Our auto is also not up to the job in such conditions, I know the newer 'G' pilots are much better but they are also much more expensive. And, in a small boat, often not fast and decisive enough. Probably would have to go for one of those cool things people use in Minis, but they cost even more than the 'G's ;-(

b.
__________________
barnakiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-09-2009, 06:24   #56
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Boston, MA
Boat: Bristol 38.8
Posts: 1,625
No, my tiller is light in most conditions, but not when the boat is being slammed diagonally with 6-8 ft waves with a very short period. That's what happens in Buzzards Bay when the wind is strong and from the NE.
__________________
Curmudgeon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-09-2009, 08:52   #57
Do… or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
The only AP's that can handle these conditions have hydraulic power packs. Also, a lot depends on the rudder configuration. A skeg (or keel) hung rudder is very hard to control when waves slap it around while a balanced spade behaves much better in those conditions, transferring the loads more perpendicular to the shaft instead of torqueing it. A wave on a skeg hung rudder is capable to strip the teeth from the gears of an electric linear drive, while a hydraulic drive gets a pressure-shock instead which is much easier to cope with (those hoses don't burst easily).

For AP steering control in high following seas you need a spade rudder because it requires less force to turn (compared to equal surface area skeg hung) so the AP can turn it quicker, plus, for each degree of rudder it gives more steering power because it's shape provides more lift (compared to equal surface area skeg hung). As a helms man, you can curse and put more power into it, but the AP is much easier overpowered and becomes unable to steer the boat.

The "gyro" pilots react quicker to waves knocking the boat around, but they don't provide extra steering power. For the boats that Barnakiel & Curmudgeon have, a good strong (over sized) hydraulic pilot will be able to steer during these conditions regardless if they have a gyro compensated fluxgate or not, while an electric linear drive is hopeless even with the gyro.

So, first select an AP with the muscle and longevity to handle the conditions; if that's done, you can add the gyro for quicker reaction, improving the steering. Never think that a gyro makes your AP stronger.

I know that modern AP's don't use real gyro's but I use the term because anyone understands what I mean with it. Modern AP "gyro" fluxgate compasses are fluxgate magnetometers.

cheers,
Nick.
__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-09-2009, 10:53   #58
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Boston, MA
Boat: Bristol 38.8
Posts: 1,625
I have an autohelm 4000 with a hydraulic arm that attaches to the tiller with a nipple. Works fine on a close or beam reach, but it tends to "overcorrect" too much with a big following sea, causing the boat to roll.
__________________
Curmudgeon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-09-2009, 11:02   #59
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 17,314
We use the windvane - but planning to go for something more 'repairable' like a Monitor (have Windpilot). Not that our auto is so bad, but it is so noisy that it gets on my nerves (a tiller pilot).

Last year I used the newer Ray and it was way better - simply disregarded the regular boat movements and took action much more decisively when required. I liked that unit a lot.

b.
__________________
barnakiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-09-2009, 12:22   #60
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
Boat: Albin Ballad; 1978; 30'-00" "SVINT II"
Posts: 87
Images: 6
Before jumping at the monitor, have a quick look at the "Cap-horn wind steering" I am very impressed by it and even though I currently don't have one, I would love to have one (have to work a few more years to afford it)
__________________

__________________
When I'm not around, look at the horizon, that's where you'll find me.
Vic de Beer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Three 20 Year-Olds Planning Caribbean Trip - Help! saltyspringer Atlantic & the Caribbean 12 31-07-2009 21:38
Youngest Circumnav is now a race Amgine Cruising News & Events 39 04-12-2008 11:39
16 year old planning on sailing around the world alone watersofdiego General Sailing Forum 26 30-10-2008 06:44
Preparing for a Circumnav - Questions! Mareva Sailor Logs & Cruising Plans 7 26-07-2006 10:42



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:42.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.