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Old 15-09-2009, 18:17   #31
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Ovni's are great, one of the few French designs that I dig. A swing keel won't fall off any more than a bolted-on fixed keel.


Nick.


For expert sailors. Jimmy Cornel wrote a wonderful article in Cruising World about his Ovni hitting something off the coast of Africa and the rudder swung up popping the hydraulic keeper-downer thingy.
The object didnt hit the swing keel because it was up.

So just like a 'normal' boat without a rudder he was having difficulties... of course it doesnt happen often in a normal boat because the keel protects the rudder.

He fixed the hydraulics and was able to pump the rudder down.

All in all they are boats for the Jimmy Cornels of the cruising world imho.


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Old 16-09-2009, 15:54   #32
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Bigger may, and very often is, safer. Spoken by a skipper of a small boat.

I think the only way get a comparably safer small boat is to go for a heavier design. But a small and heavy boat is slow. And slow = unsafe. Thus, we have to look towards bigger boats for extra safety.

Bigger can be heavier and thus may resist the forces of a breaking crest of a wave better. The forces by a breaking crest of a wave are probably the deadliest spots for a sailing boat - the wind does not matter, the long rollers, no matter how high, do not matter. What catches you and rolls over is the white water (or, occasionally - being caught on the slope of a very short, steep wave - but then, again, the bigger is safer).

The bigger is often more comfortable = safer.

The bigger is often faster = safer.

The only time the bigger stops being safer is when it is too big to handle. This 'too big' variable changes with skipper's skills, experience and how the boat is laid out. I believe I could safely man a 45 footer (say if she were a schooner or a ketch / schooner - to avoid single big sails).

Even on the easiest imaginable route - round the world - westwards, via Panama and the tropics - (too small) a boat can be knocked down in what seemed pretty regular sea conditions (prolonged F8/F9).

b.
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Old 16-09-2009, 16:27   #33
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A small, heavier boat (like mine) is slower in light air, but in anything over 15 knots true, it's just as fast as a lighter boat. Hull speed is hull speed.

Are you telling me that a Bristol Channel Cutter (or comparable Lyle Hess/William Atkin/Cecil Lange design), at 28.5 ft. LOD, isn't as safe as a 35-40 ft production boat?
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Old 16-09-2009, 17:30   #34
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Curmudgeon,

I'll give one example: there is a linear relationship between the length of your boat and the minimum size of the wave that can pitchpole you. A 30' boat can be overpowered by a big wave on the stern and pitchpole you while every 50' boat would stay right side up. When the wave is big enough to pitchpole a 50 footer, a 65 footer will still be okay etc. etc. The design of your boat or the weight don't matter because the wave will have 1000 times more energy than needed for this for even the heaviest boat.

It's not just length, I agree with you. But many other features, like freeboard are related to length again.

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Old 16-09-2009, 18:25   #35
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Shoe, Have a look at the Malo 45! Here's one that Nigel Calder built for himself that's ready to go! But it is in Seattle, and needs to be moved to your location! I will sail it there for you if you buy it! :-)

2005 Malo 45 Classic Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com=

David
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Old 16-09-2009, 18:28   #36
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Having trouble with the link. Go to yachtworld.com and enter Malo in the search bar. Look for the 2005 Malo 48 in Portland, OR at Discovery Yachts

David
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Old 16-09-2009, 19:08   #37
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"...A small, heavier boat (like mine) is slower in light air, but in anything over 15 knots true, it's just as fast as a lighter boat. Hull speed is hull speed...."

Disagree - all other things equall, the heavier boat is the slower one too - in all conditions. The only condition when they match speed is at the hull's speed - but please note, that the lighter boat will reach this speed earlier ...

"...Are you telling me that a Bristol Channel Cutter (or comparable Lyle Hess/William Atkin/Cecil Lange design), at 28.5 ft. LOD, isn't as safe as a 35-40 ft production boat?..."

Well, it sort of depends on what production boat we are talking about. A HR is a production boat, a HCH too .... I think Atkin's designs are not very safe, I think Hess designs fare much better and the last guy I have never heard of. And since so many Attkins and Hesses are one-off I would believe their quality / seaworthiness will vary wildly.

BTW Someone said Cornel's boat hitting something - does he really have an Ovni ??? I have seen one of his boats (I thought this was his current boat) and it was not an Ovni - it looked like a one-off.

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b.
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Old 16-09-2009, 19:13   #38
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Doh - I can see my mistake - I have seen the Aventura II, but she is no longer Cornell's boat.

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Old 16-09-2009, 19:18   #39
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BTW Someone said Cornel's boat hitting something - does he really have an Ovni ??? I have seen one of his boats (I thought this was his current boat) and it was not an Ovni - it looked like a one-off.

Cheers,
b.
He had one for years. Then sold it 12 months / 2 years ago

Heres Jimmy website: http://jimmycornell.com/boats/ovni-faqs
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Old 16-09-2009, 20:24   #40
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Well, I'll let others more experienced in survival conditions comment on how likely it is to get pitchpoled when properly hove to with a parachute.

As for a heavier boat being slower in all conditions, that's irrelevant when the wind goes force 8 or above. At that point you are trying to avoid the storm's kinetic energy and go as slow as you can, not as fast as you can.
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Old 16-09-2009, 21:42   #41
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At Beaufort 8 we still sail to windward and, even with the Caribbean two-step, which is the same as the North Sea one, my "lovely home waters", still in relative comfort (well, some slamming every 3rd wave, we've done it, in the Mona passage of all places). Now, that is something I would like to see you do with 28.5' boat length. You just can't, I know that because I've sailed boats around 30' most of my life and force 7 is pushing it and coming to a complete stop when a wave hits you often. At force 8 it becomes madness trying to sail to windward and things will break. You will need to lower the main completely and run away under a small jib or, if a small jib is not available, a storm jib. Or heave to. Well, I just looked up the Beaufort scale again (so switched to kts) and I'll give you a small force 9, 41-42 kts but that's the limit and for many sailors well beyond their comfort level. I remember 42-43 knots with a 42' sloop (Dehler) and the difference was already very noticable... so much so that we left port and sailed to the next destination in that and enjoyed it (but we got very wet ;-). In my 30-foot years I would have pointed to my forehead if leaving was suggested with more than 40 kts.

We don't need to slow down yet at force 8. Of course we reef and everything, but there's no towing warps and buckets or worse, deploying parachute anchors. We can still have staysail (jib furled away), reefed main and reefed mizzen up although I'll probably drop the main completely for comfort. We can just sail any normal wind angle up to 50 deg. off true wind direction (which is just over 30 apparent at our speed in those conditions which is 7 kts avg). The reason we can do that is our water line length: 64' of it. That's what, 3 times your waterline length?! You would be truly amazed how much difference that makes. At 45 knots (big force 9) I start worrying and at 50 knots (force 10) I give in and fall off to a broad reach with just our staysail or just a double reefed main if the wind direction is stable (it's mostly squalls we have at those winds here)

About the parachute anchor: I think it is a mistake to use that on a monohull. I can see the advantages for cats and tri's (I won't be nasty so I'll not go into the reasons ;-) but not for a monohull and certainly not a heavy monohull. You will be sheering like crazy, showing your broadsides to incoming waves, experience huge shockloads on the line to the parachute and one little thing leads to the second not so little thing until control is completely lost. I think you would do much better towing a drogue and preferrably a Jordan series drogue so you can easily tune it.

Also, behind a deployed parachute you are not sailing anymore so I find it childish that you discard my example about pitchpoling like that. You declared that a small boat is as safe, if not safer than a big boat. I decide to give an example of why you are wrong with that statement and now you introduce parachute anchors. What's next, safe in a marina? We're talking about doing the same thing in the same conditions, so both boats are sailing and that's where a 30' boat can get into danger of pitpoling while the bigger boat is still complete safe of that. Don't try magic tricks to sidestep that, just admit it; it is general knowledge.

Another issue came up: a boat too big to handle (during bad weather) and yes, I agree with that. I have seen many 50 footers that are too big to handle with a crew of two. But I also know big boats that are easier to handle. Sure, the crew is a factor but if we leave the crew out of the equation and just look at the boat, it's design makes that difference. And it's not just powered winches, it's much more, incl. two (smaller) masts instead of a single larger one, easily steered (not rounding up) so auto-pilot works under any but the very worst conditions, reefing system that always works smoothly, cutter instead of sloop (cutter rigged ketch instead of regular ketch) and so on. It's the total package that counts.

ciao!
Nick.
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Old 16-09-2009, 22:28   #42
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Well, you did not answer my question about the risk of pitchpoling when hove to. Once again, I'll defer to those with more experience, but my guess is that it is minimal.

As for the parachute, my boat is Lyle Hess knockoff and I would expect to heave to with a para anchor and a bridle as the Pardeys recommend in survival conditions. We're talking about safety here, not if you can keep "sailing" in force 10.

I've been out in force 7 with a double reefed main and staysail and had no problems. With your big boat, big rig, big sail area and all the forces that involves, you are more likely to carry something away than I am. What happens if you lose power? Can you handle your mainsheet? I don't have electric winches. What happens if yours go dead?
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Old 17-09-2009, 00:56   #43
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When you are hove to using a parachute, you greatly reduce the chances of pitchpoling. That is, as long as the line to the parachute doesn't break. But you might risk that the bow is pulled down into a wave-crest (??) That would lead to the line/bridle breaking I think.

About safety: sure, if you want to include other things than sailing. My dinghy is safer than Jedi herself then, because she's in the davits. I think everybody reading your statement assumed you meant that a small boat is safer while underway. You gave examples about being underway, not behind a parachute. But even if you consider that, there can be situations where your inability to make way presents danger, like not being able to get to the safe quadrant of an approaching hurricane or not being able to claw away from a lee shore. Being able to sail in worse conditions is a safety feature too!

I don't know the Pardeys, have they used that setup during survival conditions? If it worked well for them, it'll work well for you too probably and yes, that bridle will make the difference.

I agree that you can sail in force 7. I even agreed that you could still make way to windward in a small force 9. In Holland, sailing 30 footers in force 7 is normal and in the central/west Caribbean it is standard.

What do you mean with "you are more likely to carry something away than I am"? My English isn't good enough for that sentence ;-)

But my sail area can be as small as yours or go up to 1800 sq.ft. with full working sails. That's not much for a 64' boat by the way. The boat and rig are not only bigger, they are also stronger so the higher forces on for example the rig are not a problem because the rig is stronger. My standard capshrouds are 1/2" wire and yours will be much smaller. The safety margin between the strength of the rig and the actual forces on it during a storm are probably even better than for your boat. This is because when you can make something bigger, it's easier to make it stronger. Also, the forces on the rig aren't determined by the length of the boat, but by the weight of it. A heavy displacement boat has to deal with higher loads than a light displacement boat. We are ultra-light rated. Not because we weigh nothing, but because the weight-to-length ratio is so small. So, in the end, a strong but light displacement boat is safer when forces on rigging are the concern.

If I loose power to my electric winches I am back to what you have: elbow grease. Electric winches only provide a speed gain. When you put a handle in, you have more power than using the electric motor. It just takes a little longer and hoisting the mainsail becomes a workout. For reefing there are no electric winches involved. We have one electric for hoisting sails in the main mast and a second electric that does the same for the mizzen mast and doubles as the main sheet winch. We also have electric primaries but that is just for us spoiled people because electric is not needed there. We can sail Jedi just like you sail your boat and a crew of two is all that's needed.

cheers!
Nick.
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Old 17-09-2009, 01:37   #44
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It all has to do with having a good shape hull being shipshape and good seamanship.
I have and many I know been out in very hard weather in around 30ft boats. I do see them as safe as anything floating./Harry
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Old 17-09-2009, 06:16   #45
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Hi Shoe.
In 1986 I set out from South Africa, with my then wife and 15 month old son, "on a 3 year circumnavigation" 23 years later I find myself in Nova Scotia, Canada.
Plan on a 3 year trip, enjoy life along the way and let life and the wind lead where it wants you to go :-)
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