Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Polux

Being the RM faster downwind the waves will slap the boat with much less force (if at all). In fact the boat will be sailing at almost wave speed doing long surfs. I have heard about that the opinion of many sailors with fast boats with open transom and the open transom is not a liability in what concerns that.

I have also the experience on my own sailboat. Downwind at almost wave speed waves crashing on the transom does not happen.

Not unless you bury the bow.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Juho

How about Nauticat 515.

They were talking about harmonizing lines. Sure it can be done but the Nauticat 515 is not an harmonized boat (in what regards aesthetics) to my eyes.

Compare it for instance with the Southerly 47, a smaller Deck Saloon but with much nicer lines:

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by Juho

How about Nauticat 515.

Definitely a terrific pilothouse, built like a panzer tank, expensive as hell but it reflects in the quality and its not a slow boat by any mean, the triple spreader tall mast have lots of horsepower....

[Juho]

Originally Posted by Polux

They were talking about harmonizing lines. Sure it can be done but the Nauticat 515 is not an harmonized boat (in what regards aesthetics) to my eyes.

Compare it for instance with the Southerly 47, a smaller Deck Saloon but with much nicer lines:

Aesthetics is a difficult topic to argue about since its all personal. Southerly looks sleeker, and Nauticat is a bit more robust. Being sleek may be good for aerodynamics, but I agree with Dockhead in that beauty follows function. I might like the Nauticat a bit more if it had some strong aluminium rims around the pilothouse windows, instead of its somewhat modernized large, dark and square looking windows. Southerly's even more streamlined windows say to me "fashion before function", which I don't like that much. Strong, safe and functional would be my style. You can build aesthetics also on top of that.

Southerly says that Southerly 47 has a "raised saloon", and it seems to have a raised nav station too. Nauticat 515 is more like a full pilot house with steering inside, and 360° views for the sitting passengers. I guess that makes the pilot house and windscreen a bit higher.

I'm not sure if Southerly qualifies as a centre cockpit boat (but maybe her bigger sister could be, keeping the same style).

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Juho

Aesthetics is a difficult topic to argue about since its all personal. Southerly looks sleeker, and Nauticat is a bit more robust. Being sleek may be good for aerodynamics, but I agree with Dockhead in that beauty follows function. I might like the Nauticat a bit more if it had some strong aluminium rims around the pilothouse windows, instead of its somewhat modernized large, dark and square looking windows. Southerly's even more streamlined windows say to me "fashion before function", which I don't like that much. Strong, safe and functional would be my style. You can build aesthetics also on top of that.

Southerly says that Southerly 47 has a "raised saloon", and it seems to have a raised nav station too. Nauticat 515 is more like a full pilot house with steering inside, and 360° views for the sitting passengers. I guess that makes the pilot house and windscreen a bit higher.

I'm not sure if Southerly qualifies as a centre cockpit boat (but maybe her bigger sister could be, keeping the same style).

More than by aesthetics those two boats are separated by several decades of yacht design evolution. Here the Southerly 49, a similar design and the Nauticat 515:

[Juho]

Originally Posted by Polux

More than by aesthetics those two boats are separated by several decades of yacht design evolution. Here the Southerly 49, a similar design and the Nauticat 515:

You mean, for the benefit of the older seaworthy design and less fancy fashion?

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

This kind of thing is one of several reasons why I prefer center cockpits on boats over about 45'.

I don't get that.....
The relative speed and force of the same breaking sea coming over the bow is considerably higher than a following sea....so you are in general much drier and protected when waves are coming from ahead.

If they are large with green water continually breaking aboard from astern....then I would consider turning round and heave to.... or if no concern about broaching.. go below and steer/run from an enclosed pilothouse.

I really like my walk-in semi aft cockpit that keeps my CG low when moving about and drains easy.

[Terra Nova]

This looks like it's built for the job. Good looking boat.

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by Polux

Being the RM faster downwind the waves will slap the boat with much less force (if at all). In fact the boat will be sailing at almost wave speed doing long surfs. I have heard about that the opinion of many sailors with fast boats with open transom and the open transom is not a liability in what concerns that.

I have also the experience on my own sailboat. Downwind at almost wave speed waves crashing on the transom does not happen.

That is in mild or coastal weather only. In well build up open seas the wave speed is multiples of your surfing speed. You should know, being an experienced sailor.

[poiu]

Here's one that might fit the bill for Dockhead.

2013 Explorer Schooner 70 Aluminium Sail New and Used Boats for Sale

It's big and expensive, but ticks a lot of boxes and may give some design ideas. Sort of is how I imagine Dashew would have done things if he hadn't gone over to the dark side.

One thing I can't reconcile with these pilothouse yachts is that it doesn't seem possible to sit in a cool breezy cockpit and keep watch without standing up every 5 minutes to peer over the pilothouse in the warm places of the world all that standing up and sitting down is going to become tiresome. Of course if you are sailing in cold places you might be happy to keep watch from indoors.

You also will miss out on enjoying all round views at anchor from the cockpit with that big pilothouse blocking half the view.

A doghouse gives a better view forwards, but it will in some situations be either too hot or too cold.

I think this is one of many issues where a perfect solution doesn't exist. You have to give it your best shot.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by poiu

Here's one that might fit the bill for Dockhead.

2013 Explorer Schooner 70 Aluminium Sail New and Used Boats for Sale

It's big and expensive, but ticks a lot of boxes and may give some design ideas. Sort of is how I imagine Dashew would have done things if he hadn't gone over to the dark side.

One thing I can't reconcile with these pilothouse yachts is that it doesn't seem possible to sit in a cool breezy cockpit and keep watch without standing up every 5 minutes to peer over the pilothouse in the warm places of the world all that standing up and sitting down is going to become tiresome. Of course if you are sailing in cold places you might be happy to keep watch from indoors.

You also will miss out on enjoying all round views at anchor from the cockpit with that big pilothouse blocking half the view.

A doghouse gives a better view forwards, but it will in some situations be either too hot or too cold.

I think this is one of many issues where a perfect solution doesn't exist. You have to give it your best shot.

That's a very interesting boat! I'm going to write for more detailed information.

It has dual propulsion -- something I was also toying with as an idea.

I like the Dashew-esque split rig, with the masts far enough away from each other that they will not blanket each other that much. They've mis-classified it as a schooner, however -- with equal size masts, it's a ketch, I believe.

That boat cost at least 3 million euros to build, I reckon, and could be bought for half the asking price, I reckon -- there being very little market for used oddball custom boats. Something like that could be a much cheaper option for me, if not to many compromises to my design brief had to be made. But if I could buy it for only a million, then it would be possible to make some modifications to it.


You have well described the problem of pilothouse vs cockpit, and I guess there's no real solution to it. I do not like the weird cockpit enclosure on this "schooner", which is the worst of both worlds I think. Dashew solves this problem on his power boats with -- a flybridge deck. Couldn't be done at all on a sailboat (unless you do it the Lagoon way, which I would never do). I guess I will have to give up some "view from the cockpit" in favor of the pilothouse. Remember that besides the minus in terms of view, there is a plus in terms of protection from wind, while anchored, in having a pilothouse between the cockpit and the bow.

[Matt Johnson]

That's another Berckemeyer design. I believe in addition to the lifting keel, it also has water ballast... they're known for this feature.

http://www.berckemeyer-yacht.de/yach...0_schoner.html

Yacht.de magazine did a test sail on the boat. Try looking on their site.

Matt

[malbert73]

quote name="Polux" post=2136458]Being the RM faster downwind the waves will slap the boat with much less force (if at all). In fact the boat will be sailing at almost wave speed doing long surfs. I have heard about that the opinion of many sailors with fast boats with open transom and the open transom is not a liability in what concerns that.





I have also the experience on my own sailboat. Downwind at almost wave speed waves crashing on the transom does not happen.





That is in mild or coastal weather only. In well build up open seas the wave speed is multiples of your surfing speed. You should know, being an experienced sailor.




Exactly. That whole idea of surfing ahead of storm seas only works for race boats with full crews, or in protected inshore conditions. Just look up some videos of volvo ocean race boats that are surfing ahead of storm seas and see how many they stuff their bow into. Exciting stuff, but not exactly the stuff of cruising boats (unless you have 8 full time crew to run the boat...)

Another example of theory and marketing materials trumping actual function.

I do get that open transoms drain water better so that's good if you prefer. I just keep thinking about clipper race woman who drowned when she washed out open transom under lifelines.




Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by funjohnson

That's another Berckemeyer design. I believe in addition to the lifting keel, it also has water ballast... they're known for this feature.

Berckemeyer Yacht Design | plans for modern and classic sailing yachts

Yacht.de magazine did a test sail on the boat. Try looking on their site.

Matt

Thanks -- interesting.

It has a lot of Dashew DNA in it -- as if they were trying to combine a Sundeer ketch with a FPB power boat.

It's a heavyweight with a lot of power boat genes in it, and that's not quite what I want, and rather windage-ridden, too.

It also lacks a multitude of Dashew details.

I also dislike the davits (although I admit that at this size, davits start working better), and hate the Ikea furniture.

But it's still a very interesting boat with a lot of good features.

[hoppy]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

and hate the Ikea furniture.

More office cafeteria look than Ikea

How about this one off Dutch yacht. The alu hull was built professionally and then the owner built the rest