Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

[neilpride]

Paolo, the beneteau 50 have a keel stepped mast , you know how I know that? because I rigged a bene 50, you want to see pictures and see how embarrassed can be for you, is this ignorance or just a way to justify something?

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by Polux

Hard to understand why you say that too. Twin rudders are much shorter than a single rudder so they should be a lot more protected in case of grounding.

Tides.. when the water goes out, the boat lies on her side. Anything sticking out the side is vulnerable to having a portion of the weight of the boat sitting on it.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Cadence

Sometimes I have to believe some people are arm chair sailors. Granted I'm not the best.

Speaking of what you have read someplace? Or speculation on design without any actual education or even serious reading.

Seems like people with nothing else to do. It kind of muddies up the real contributions.

Talk the man without boat calling others arm chair sailors

In fact you don't need to have a boat to know that a big quantity of racing boats have made it to port for repairs having lost a rudder on a two rudder setup, it would only be needed that one likes sail racing and have being followed on the last 15 years solo or short raced transats and circumnavigations, a thing you have not done otherwise you would know of what I am talking about.

As a near example on the last ARC, on the racing division, the guys on a racing class 40 (Pogo 40 S2) where doing a very good race till they become a bit slower: they had lost one of the two rudders, they have keep racing (instead of sailing more slowly) but had to dismount the rudder and mount it on the other side each time they changed tack.

Giving the conditions they made an amazing race finishing ahead (in real time on the racing division) of a Oyster 825 and ahead of two racing Challenge 72. Not bad for a 40ft boat with a damaged rudder system

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

Tides.. when the water goes out, the boat lies on her side. Anything sticking out the side is vulnerable to having a portion of the weight of the boat sitting on it.

The boats that are designed to be beached have some sort of swing keel , lifting keel or board and they stay on their twin rudders, just for lateral balance.

Why should someone left a boat not designed to be beeched get grounded so hard that it would lay on its side?

[Polux]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Paolo, the beneteau 50 have a keel stepped mast , you know how I know that? because I rigged a bene 50, you want to see pictures and see how embarrassed can be for you, is this ignorance or just a way to justify something?

Certainly it doesn't look like on those drawings but the Beneteau 50 is not an Oceanis so it is possible, and if you say so certainly is the case.

But certainly you know that today, on the Beneteau line Oceanis have deck stepped masts and First have keel stepped mast, as it happens on almost all main market cruisers (like Oceanis) versus all performance cruisers (or cruiser/racers) like First.

Still waiting you to tell me what were the Pogos that passed on the shipyard you work last season. Probably you forgot about that.

Edit:Here is the said mast:


An ugly intrusion on that interior. The wood cannot take away its volume.

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by Polux

Certainly it doesn't look like on those drawings but the Beneteau 50 is not an Oceanis so it is possible, and if you say so certainly is the case.

But certainly you know that today, on the Beneteau line Oceanis have deck stepped masts and First have keel stepped mast, as it happens on almost all main market cruisers (like Oceanis) versus all performance cruisers (or cruiser/racers) like First.

Still waiting you to tell me what were the Pogos that passed on the shipyard you work last season. Probably you forgot about that.

Edit:Here is the said mast:


An ugly intrusion on that interior. The wood cannot take away its volume.

Ugly intrusion? it,s a double cabin layout, the bulkhead i,ts doing 3 main jobs, separating the cabins for privacy, reinforcing the deck , and hiding the mast...ugly intrusion could be the mast in the Comet 41..
And the fact still remain , a compresion post leaving aside the aesthetics and tastes is still a intrusion and a obstacle in the interior.

[hoppy]

Ok, it sounds great to say that if you are dismasted with a keel stepped mast, you might end up with 7m of mast that you can jury ring a sail to, to get you home. But that assumes that the other 10m of mast can be easily cut away.



But what if, there is not a clean break and the upper part of the mast is still connected or if the break is above the spreaders and the broken section is held over your head?



Maybe on a fully crewed yacht with young fit people you can get someone up whats left of the mast to cut it away, but what if you are a cruising couple or solo?

Maybe it's better to have a deck stepped mast, so when it goes, all of the cutting and hard work to release it is a deck level. If you are lucky, perhaps you can salvage the boom or the spinaker pole for your jury rig before you drop the mast over the side.

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by Polux

The boats that are designed to be beached have some sort of swing keel , lifting keel or board and they stay on their twin rudders, just for lateral balance.

Why should someone left a boat not designed to be beeched get grounded so hard that it would lay on its side?

Dude, do I need to spell it out to you like you are a small child.

Of course you dont intentionally ground and dry out a boat like that, but bad stuff happens, despite our best intentions, anchors drag, markers are misread or in remote areas charts are wrong.

With a quickly falling tide, or with the wind or current setting towards the shallows the boat could easily get stuck and have to wait for the next high.

Having vulnerable rudders is a extra bit of worry in this scenaro that is another big negitive in my book.

Sure the open 60 I sailed on might have had a poor design. But it just proves twin rudders are not the cure to all woes, as the marketing team would like us to believe, in their eternal quest for product differenciation.

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by hoppy

Ok, it sounds great to say that if you are dismasted with a keel stepped mast, you might end up with 7m of mast that you can jury ring a sail to, to get you home. But that assumes that the other 10m of mast can be easily cut away.



But what if, there is not a clean break and the upper part of the mast is still connected or if the break is above the spreaders and the broken section is held over your head?



Maybe on a fully crewed yacht with young fit people you can get someone up whats left of the mast to cut it away, but what if you are a cruising couple or solo?

Maybe it's better to have a deck stepped mast, so when it goes, all of the cutting and hard work to release it is a deck level. If you are lucky, perhaps you can salvage the boom or the spinaker pole for your jury rig before you drop the mast over the side.

You can cut it free, its risky bussines, but in the other hand it can be your only ticket,, to be honest, you can hold the rest of the broken mast to the bow and use the windlass to tight the broken piece strong , or use one of those fantastic batterie grinders and cut it free, its something you need to consider like a personal choice, deck stepped spars fall over in one piece sometimes or 2 parts messed together with furler, sails, rigging, etc,, look we replace dozen of masts every 4 or 5 years, last season we get the record ,5 spars in the good season, reasons are mixed, from the guy who never make a rigging inspection and one day, one upper snap,, to the charter skipper who attempt to cross a bridge chanel in a windy day and crash in one side, since I'm a rigger I never see a deck stepped mast dismasted and with something useful in deck, almost in all cases all gear to the bottom of the ocean, if that happen close to shore or not to far offshore or near continental shores where you can have some diesel range and get to destination or at least radio range to ask for a tow, then is not a big deal, but if you are thousands miles from any shore believe me you want that 6 ft of broken mast ... or in my case no doubt, I want to jury rig and sail again....

[neilpride]

In other words....

[neilpride]

Deck stepped mast boats.

[reed1v]

From our actual experiences: 1. deck stepped mast went overboard in its entirety. Rigging kept it from sinking. 2. Keel stepped mast broke just above spreaders with the broken part sailing around the deck held on by the rigging.

In neither case did we try to jury rig. Turned the motor on and proceeded onwards. Fixing the deck stepped mast was easy. Fixing the keel stepped mast less so(sleeve and rivets). Neither case was beyond handiman capabilities.

Summary: its a wash. If we had to jury rig probably would have used the two spinnaker poles as an A frame to attach a not very efficient sail(jib sideways) or use the half mast standing to raise a very inefficient main.

For deck stepped masts, you can re-engineer a three to four foot boot with a locking fulcrum midway up so your main, sitting in the boot, can be raised or lowered easily, facilitating mast changes if needed. Good also for canal travels. For keel stepped you are out of luck.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

Dude, do I need to spell it out to you like you are a small child.

Of course you dont intentionally ground and dry out a boat like that, but bad stuff happens, despite our best intentions, anchors drag, markers are misread or in remote areas charts are wrong.

With a quickly falling tide, or with the wind or current setting towards the shallows the boat could easily get stuck and have to wait for the next high.

Having vulnerable rudders is a extra bit of worry in this scenaro that is another big negitive in my book.

Sure the open 60 I sailed on might have had a poor design. But it just proves twin rudders are not the cure to all woes, as the marketing team would like us to believe, in their eternal quest for product differenciation.

Dude, i thought you were talking about cruising boats with two rudders when sailing in Antarctica . An open 60 is a very particular top racing boat and they use a twin rudder set up for decades (for good reason). To make any valid comparison on that case, regarding rudder efficiency, you needed to have sailed also a Open 60 with a single rudder and as I said, for good reason, they only use twin rudders.

So it seems your post about the disadvantages of a twin rudder set up (on an open 60) don't make any sense in what regards comparative advantages and disadvantages neither in what regards Open 60's, much less in what regards voyage cruising boats.

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

... Not so sure about the twin rudders for high lats, been to Antarctica 3 times on a boat with twin rudders and grew to hate them with a passion. ....
Particularly bad control when broad reaching in a big sea. Say on stb tack As the boat powered up and wanted to round up we would need to wind on some port rudder. As the boat rolled to port the stb rudder would lift out and let go due to being mostly in the air, so we would need to wind on a heap more rudder to stop a broach. Now broach averted the boat would roll back to stb and the stb rudder would catch, and unless you had taken off all of the port rudder the steering force would double with two rudders now working rather than one and the boat would quickly round down and gybe in the blink of an eye. Nasty and very non progressive helm response.

Regarding grounding a boat in a way that it only can refloated again on the next tide you are right: frightening stuff and I would say not very careful sailing on uncharted waters. The twin rudders are the least concern. Bad weather can destroy the boat in meantime.

[Polux]

More in the spirit of this thread, even if not a pilot house or a deck saloon, a fast voyage boat that can sailed (and is sailed) from the interior, that provides a good view all around and to the sails, the new RM 1270, offering a great stability due to a big hull form stability and a very low ballast, possible due to a big swing keel with all the ballast on the keel. The boat offers too a very swallow draft with the keel up.

The RN 1270 was tested by yacht de that made a great test video:
RM 1270: kantig und schnellÂ*|Â*YACHT.DE

[malbert73]

Neat concept, like what they did with the forward berth.

Not what I would call a voyage cruiser given the cockpit- more a race boat cockpit. Pretty exposed helm station. Nowhere to sit to steer except perched on coaming which would get tiring. And mid cockpit traveler precludes sun or rain protection for helms, and wide open cockpit would drench you steering if there were significant following seas. Not to mention when you fumble the sunscreen, sunglasses, binoculars, etc- bye bye!! I don't think mainsheet in middle of cockpit is a cruising design.

So I'd conclude this is a fun fast coastal cruiser for day trips. Obviously you could sail it much further, but I wouldn't


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