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**neilpride** · 26-05-2016, 09:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

You do not understand the word efficiency as it relates to cruising. It is a very elusive thing for cruising because almost every cruiser has a different set of proirities that help define what efficent really means for them. Racing is pretty easy to quantify. Winning on line or handicap is pretty much all that counts. Sometimes speed for the doller is important. But basically speed is king. On a cruiser absolute speed is not what makes a boat efficient.

This is the whole problem with you. Your idea of what looks good, or your set of priorities is what you think is perfect. You fail to realise that others may have different proirities, and different definitions of efficiency. Eg I want a boat that can use a windvane 99% of the time. That pretty much rules out surfing. So a big surfboard shaped hull optimised for drag racing downwind is pretty inefficient for me.

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Wonder why you want one of those crazy windvanes in a pogo 12,50 when the pogo have enough Dc resources and genset to run a DC AP...24/7 ...

Polux · 26-05-2016, 10:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilpride

Wonder why you want one of those crazy windvanes in a pogo 12,50 when the pogo have enough Dc resources and genset to run a DC AP...24/7 ...

Pogo sailors while on ocean passages use the same system to get energy as the circumnavigation racers. Lots of energy and little drag with modern hydrogenerators.

Cruising hydro generator

"Effective on a range of speed from 2 to 10 knots, its simple assembly is carried out on the transom thanks to a lifting system, like rudder, with an integrated cam-cleat.
Power : 120W at 5 knots further to the model and size of the propeller (10A - 12V; 5A -24V)
Start-up speed: 2 knots
Aluminium leg : 610 or 970 mm
Cruising 300 : nominal output 300 Watts (24 A in 12 Vcc)
Cruising 600 : nominal output 600 Watts (48 A in 12 Vcc)"

Polux · 26-05-2016, 11:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

You do not understand the word efficiency as it relates to cruising. It is a very elusive thing for cruising because almost every cruiser has a different set of proirities that help define what efficent really means for them. Racing is pretty easy to quantify. Winning on line or handicap is pretty much all that counts. Sometimes speed for the doller is important. But basically speed is king. On a cruiser absolute speed is not what makes a boat efficient.

This is the whole problem with you. Your idea of what looks good, or your set of priorities is what you think is perfect. You fail to realise that others may have different proirities, and different definitions of efficiency. ..
...

Do you really had a look at the list of cruising boats that I posted? Besides being all contemporary state of the art designs, they point to completely different priorities and different types of sailors. Off course they all sail well (relatively to their program) because that is what sailboats should do and as I said they are all state of the art designs:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polux

...
Boreal 47-Voyage boat, Hanse 415- main market mass production boat, Hanse 575-main market mass production boat, Hanse 34-main market mass production boat, Pogo 12.50-fast voyage boat, JPK 38-fast voyage boat, Discovery 48, medium weight main market boat, Gunfleet 58, medium weight voyage boat, Luffe 4004-performance cruiser, RM 1600-fast voyage boat, Pogo 50-fast voyage boat, Revolution 29-small aluminium voyage boat, Garcia 52-Voyage boat, OVNI 52-voyage boat, Cigale 16-fast voyage boat, Adventure 55-Fast voyage boat, Salona 60-performance cruiser, X6- fast voyage boat, Solaris 58-performance cruiser, Italia Yacht 15.99-main market cruiser, Euphoria 54-main market cruiser, Advanced 60- main market cruiser, Halberg Rassy 44-medium weight main market cruiser, Pogo 36-small fast voyage boat, Allures 52-Voyage boat, Nordship 430DS-voyage boat, CR 440-Deck saloon, CR 480- Deck Saloon, Boreal 52-Voyage boat.
..

I posted 8 aluminium voyage boats, 5 fast GRP voyage boat, 4 medium weight main market cruising boats, 3 performance cruisers and 5 light main market cruisers and 3 mass market production boats.

It is you that from all these boats focus only on the fast voyage boats that I posted: 5 out of 28 boats and it is you that don't seem to understand that some sailors just prefer them for long range cruising, not all, a small percentage but certainly much more than the ones that prefer to cruise in really heavy boats that practically don't exist anymore on the market because the very small demand does not justify their existence as a market boat.

Regarding fast voyage boats, the many proposals on the market and the increase of number of brands on that market niche (on the last years) show an increasing demand.

**Dockhead** · 26-05-2016, 11:18

We've arrived in Finland after a very difficult passage -- forecast F6-7 and was -- F8, a cold Northerly gale out of the Arctic down the Gulf of Bothnia. So the weather gods decided that in this whole voyage we'd been spoiled enough with their favors, and gave us a whack, to keep us honest and humble. The waves were low, less than 6m I would say, but square, and vicious. Knocked us down to 50 degrees or so a couple of times, and ripped a plank of teak off our stb rail. 170 miles under staysail and deeply reefed main -- we did however make good time.

What concerns this discussion -- I was awfully missing the pilothouse last night in that cold gale. I had the six hour watch from 10 to 4, and it was a trial. I put on the heat in the cabin, and stood on the companionway stairs, and held on as best I could, while watching the sails and the radar. At this latitude at this time of year it doesn't get completely dark, at least, so my fear of not seeing the breakers, was not justified.

Concerning "sailing efficiency" -- that fictional value, which is not the main point of sailboat design, and never has been.

Last night, I would have preferred to have a hull form which is really obsolete -- which we can all agree is really obsolete -- a heavy double ender with a full keel. Last night, the miles per day were the last thing on our mind. A 60' full keel double ender would have been the right tool for the job last night.

My own boat did ok -- at least she is immensely strong, never creaked, never bent, never complained. But she has short ends, and a very moderately raked stem, and not enough -- for my purposes -- reserve buoyancy in the bows. The nav lights were underwater -- a lot. And green water swept the decks during the whole night. I can't imagine what it would have been like on one of Polux's teenage boy fantasy boats -- no, you just wouldn't be out there on one of them, but I have to be out there -- because that's where I cruise, and this weather is part of the territory. So my next boat will be even less fashionable than my present one -- more bow rake, more flare, less weight up there. Longer.

Polux · 26-05-2016, 13:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

d
My own boat did ok -- at least she is immensely strong, never creaked, never bent, never complained. ... I can't imagine what it would have been like on one of Polux's teenage boy fantasy boats -- ...

That is offensive, not for me but for all the ones that prefer that types of boats that you decided to call my fantasy teenage boats. I am not a teenage having more than 60 years of age and I sail a boat that you call my teenager fantasy. The boat is real, not a fantasy and all those boats (the several boats you call teenage fantasy boats) are owned and cruised by many sailors.

What you call teenage fantasy boat goes from fast performance cruisers like the Salona 60 or the Solaris 58 to boats like the aluminium Cigale 16, the aluminium adventure 55, the Pogo 50.

Some of those boats would do much better than your boat on those circunstances. Some are just better upwind boats, with finer entries, more power and stability. They would slice through the waves more effortlessly and comfortably than your main market cruiser.

Some years ago upwind with nasty 3 to 4m short period waves on a F6/7 I rapidly catched up a Moody 425, passing him doing at least 1k better, pounding less and pointing higher. The guy seems to be pissed with that, took the jib out, stayed on the mainsail and passed to motorsailing. That was better and he made better speed pointing higher...but I was still faster sailing (I have posted about this already some time ago). That's real information about the comparative upwind performance with waves and wind between a boat with a hull like yours and a hull of a maximized upwind performance cruiser (about the same size).

And since you seem to have the habit to compare the performance of my 41ft boat with your 54ft boat, I am not saying that my boat would go better on those conditions but that an upwind maximized performance cruiser the length of your boat, like the Solaris or a Swan 60 , would do better, not withstanding you call them fantasy teenage sailboats.

Your idea that an old double ender would do better than yours makes no sense. Your boat is more powerfull, the older boat would be making at least 1 to 2 k less and would be pitching a lot. If you like to go slower and rock a lot, than that's the boat for you ;-)

I have no problem with your particular ideas regarding what is the right cruiser for you but I have a problem with you considering that many sailboats that are used to cruise extensively by sailors with more contemporary tastes than yours are Just my "teenage fantasy boats". Statements like that are just odd and show a self centered vision of reality. The reality (not yours) show otherwise.

**neilpride** · 26-05-2016, 13:37

The slam!! going upwind in a sea with a pogo is for real, saying by a owner who stop at SXM for rigging inspection and we have the chance to sailtest the boat for a couple of hours, Motion Comfort Polux is something out of your dictionaryI guess....

Polux · 26-05-2016, 13:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilpride

The slam!! going upwind in a sea with a pogo is for real, saying by a owner who stop at SXM for rigging inspection and we have the chance to sailtest the boat for a couple of hours, Motion Comfort Polux is something out of your dictionaryI guess....

You should make an effort to read what others post

. I was talking about boats like the Solaris 50. I hope you can see the difference in what regards the Pogo 50:

The Pogo has the ideal hull form to be sailed solo or duo on the trade winds that is were voyages are made and oceans crossed. It is a downwind maximized boat. Sure it can go upwind very fast with small waves.

When wave drag starts to be big than it can still go relatively fast, opening the angle and going faster (than other boats more close to the wind) making a good VMG but that at the cost of sheer power against the waves: Comfortably it isn't on those circumstances and a boat like the Solaris 50 would do slightly better but most of all much more comfortably.

A faster boat than the Solaris but with the same type of hull would do considerably better than the Pogo in what regards VMG.

**neilpride** · 26-05-2016, 14:13

I'm pointing the pogo since you mention this boat in your list of voyage fancy sporty toys , then I dont see any factual reason to call this boat a real cruising boat , not by the open cockpit, not by the hull form who is really annoying going to weather.

TeddyDiver · 26-05-2016, 14:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polux

T
Your idea that an old double ender would do better than yours makes no sense. Your boat is more powerfull, the older boat would be making at least 1 to 2 k less and would be pitching a lot. If you like to go slower and rock a lot, than that's the boat for you ;-)

^ This statement is a proof of ignorance.
There's no such boat that will shine in all conditions. Never were, never will. Allways some outdated tub is sometimes better. Maybe rarely but still..

Snowpetrel · 26-05-2016, 15:13

Sometimes there is no substitute for weight! I remember a cook straight race many years ago. I was on a very modern young 11. Great boat in most weather, but not 40 knots on the nose. We retired, the boat was really taking a pounding, as were we! I think most of the boats retired. The winner was an heavy long keeled steel cruising boat with a pilothouse. They plugged away though the night, round the island and back, suprised to find they were one of the last boats left.

Two of my favorite boats from the many I have delivered were a Young 8.8 and a heavy double ended sistership to Suhali. Both good boats in their own different ways.

I would take the young for inshore work. Fast and fun to sail. And the heavy 32 foot double ender offshore, she had a sturdiness and solidarity that was very reassuring in rough stuff. She didnt pound at all. Steered herself on any point of sail, including downwind, and had a comfortable motion.

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packeteer · 26-05-2016, 15:41

keep the hate up, it really makes the thread

Snowpetrel · 26-05-2016, 18:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polux

Pogo sailors while on ocean passages use the same system to get energy as the circumnavigation racers. Lots of energy and little drag with modern hydrogenerators.

Cruising hydro generator

"Effective on a range of speed from 2 to 10 knots, its simple assembly is carried out on the transom thanks to a lifting system, like rudder, with an integrated cam-cleat.
Power : 120W at 5 knots further to the model and size of the propeller (10A - 12V; 5A -24V)
Start-up speed: 2 knots
Aluminium leg : 610 or 970 mm
Cruising 300 : nominal output 300 Watts (24 A in 12 Vcc)
Cruising 600 : nominal output 600 Watts (48 A in 12 Vcc)"

Just isnt my cup of tea, I like the asthetic of sailing with a minimum of gadgets and electrikery or diesel.

This is more my idea of the ultimate in efficiency for offshore sailing.

Roger Taylors Ming Ming 2

hoppy · 26-05-2016, 22:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

Roger Taylors Ming Ming 2

Are you offering this photo to Dockhead as an idea of a pilothouse design?

On a 50+ footer, a small one man pilothouse would create minimal windage which would keep DH happy although perhaps bigger windows would be better.

Snowpetrel · 26-05-2016, 23:26

^^No, I just stirring a pot of fecal matter... but little doghouses like that have their plusses, it is nice if you can route control lines around them, rather than having to go over them, and if you fit a veranda at the aft end of the dodger you can have windows that enable a clear view forward, without looking right through the pilothouse and two sets of glass.

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