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Old 12-05-2016, 13:30   #91
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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I would only comment on the plumb bow and if I understood rightly lesser buoyancy. It is the opposite, for the same LOA a plumb will provide not only a bigger LWL as also a big buoyancy (due to a bigger volume).

I don't like the interior but regarding hull shape the boat presents very fine entries and a fast well designed hull with a moderate beam.
Slow internet!!!! here are the pictures that will give better idea of the hull odf the Adventure 55:





Regarding the interior, this is pretty much a semi custom boat and the boat can have the interior any owner desire and there is plenty of space for a deck saloon with a separated nav station.

Regarding how solid a lifting keel can be this video is a good reminder:

and it is not an aluminium boat that has the potential to have a stronger lifting keel.
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Old 12-05-2016, 13:51   #92
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Polux, I think you might be mistaken when you used the word "LOA" above. I you sure you did not mean "LOD" ?

Seems to me that if you really are talking about length over all, you should consider the over hanging anchor roller/sprit.

And then you if you compare two boats with the same LOA and same LWL, one with a plumb stem (with overhanging anchor roller) and one with a raked stem (that does not need a overhanging anchor roller), the raked stemmed boat will have a greater increase in buoyancy as the bow buries into the water.

Steve
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Old 12-05-2016, 14:06   #93
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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Regarding how solid a lifting keel
and it is not an aluminium boat that has the potential to have a stronger lifting keel.

Impressive but Not the best test scenario though. Inshore with a known risk of grounding the keel should always be unlocked to allow it to lift. The real rest of a lifting keel system is a grounding with it locked down; will the locking system survive? Can it be unlocked? Can the lifting mechanism lift it with forces acting upon it other than the keel hanging free?

Add to that grounding in swell. Even if the keel is unlocked there will be massive shock loadings on the lifting mechanism as the boat pounds. If it's locked in swell you have real problems.

If the keel is unlocked and you ground in swell you can sometimes power the boat over the obstacle on the lifts provided that you can get the rudders out of the way.



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Old 12-05-2016, 14:33   #94
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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Polux, I think you might be mistaken when you used the word "LOA" above. Are you sure you did not mean "LOD" ?

Seems to me that if you really are talking about length over all, you should consider the over hanging anchor roller/sprit.

And then you if you compare two boats with the same LOA and same LWL, one with a plumb stem (with overhanging anchor roller) and one with a raked stem (that does not need a overhanging anchor roller), the raked stemmed boat will have a greater increase in buoyancy as the bow buries into the water.

Steve
A quick sketch to go with the above.

The raked stem boat will likely have:
-more reserve buoyancy
-drier decks (because of flare)
-more deck space
-stronger anchor roller support
-head-stay can be placed further forward (unless the plumb stemmed bowsprit is stayed).

The need for a large over-hang of the anchor roller is often overlooked on modern designs. A dangling anchor on a pitching boat, will cause great damage to the topsides.

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Old 12-05-2016, 14:40   #95
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Hi, I see that somebody posted a link to my boat's (Rocket Science) technical details here, so I'll chime in.

First, regarding the dodger/pilothouse question.

We have a very nice hard dodger which covers about 4 feet of the cockpit. I agree with Dockhead that this is not sufficient for very cold sailing. We've had occasion to sail with temperatures just below freezing, and it just doesn't do the trick for us. Maybe we're weenies, but long watches out there, even out of the wind really take a lot out of the crew. For longer trips into very cold weather, we would at the very least make this part of the cockpit completely enclosable with a watertight door for access.

Regarding the keel, a high-aspect bulb is what we have, and I have complete confidence in it's ability to come away from a grounding no worse off than anybody else. HOWEVER, the engineering is critical. The design brief on RS was that she should be able to structurally survive a grounding at 12 knots. The keel has a fuse pin, allowing it to pivot, while another pin provides deceleration as it breaks through a progressively thicker UHMW channel. The third pin is huge and will not fail. The trim tab on the keel has a crush zone so that it will not damage the laminate as the keel rotates back.

So, these keels can be done to a very high level of strength, but it would take some serious time with the design team to make sure you get there.

I think that plumb bows are actually just fine offshore. Prior to RS, we always had a more flared bow, and I've found that I actually prefer the narrower entry. Windward speed is maintained much better than a fuller bow. Yes, the foredeck is very wet, and we typically pinch up and slow right down (or bear off) before heading up there to do anything. We have found the design to be overall more of an asset than a liability, but there are merits to both.


Don't forget the water ballast in the new boat, Dockhead! What a great invention that is...

Good sailing, TJ
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Old 12-05-2016, 15:36   #96
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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(...)

The raked stem boat will likely have:
-more reserve buoyancy
-drier decks (because of flare)

(...)
What do you need the 'reserve' buoyancy for?

IMO, boats with plumb bows and narrow entries are best thing since sliced bread when driving upwind in chop. They drive thru the water rather than lift and fall and lift and fall and lift ... You may want your boat to sail forward rather than up and down.

Then again I think maybe it is not only how the bow is shaped but perhaps we must look at how the displacement is distributed. A fine entry plumb bow is often now matched with most displacement well aft.

Our own boat has no overhangs and a reasonably narrow entry. Only 2 ft of freeboard. We sail drier than most boats with flared bows I have sailed on (that's heaps, if this counts).

Just talking. I am clearly 100% into plumb bows and would not return to the 'old school' bows without getting hideously (over-) paid.

Good bow: http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boat-con...NCL4242_A3.jpg

Cheers,
b.
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Old 12-05-2016, 15:47   #97
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Yup. We had a clipper bowed boat once. That kind of bow does have "reserve" buoyancy but also means you are plowing a lot of water rather than making speed. If you are lifting water your boat energy is not being used just to go forwards. A plumb bow does not plow water and thus directs most of the boat's energy in going forwards.

Reserve buoyancy is not so critical for the bow as it is for the overall boat design. Yes, you will have a wetter fore deck but also less spray heading aft.
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Old 12-05-2016, 15:51   #98
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Plumb bows, flatter fore underbody to accommodate shallow draught with lifting keel can lead to a boat the slams horribly upwind - very uncomfortable even gear breaking.

Not an easy compromise


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Old 12-05-2016, 16:07   #99
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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What do you need the 'reserve' buoyancy for?

IMO, boats with plumb bows and narrow entries are best thing since sliced bread when driving upwind in chop. They drive thru the water rather than lift and fall and lift and fall and lift ... You may want your boat to sail forward rather than up and down.

Then again I think maybe it is not only how the bow is shaped but perhaps we must look at how the displacement is distributed. A fine entry plumb bow is often now matched with most displacement well aft.

Our own boat has no overhangs and a reasonably narrow entry. Only 2 ft of freeboard. We sail drier than most boats with flared bows I have sailed on (that's heaps, if this counts).

Just talking. I am clearly 100% into plumb bows and would not return to the 'old school' bows without getting hideously (over-) paid.

Good bow:

Cheers,
b.
B, I was just clarifying things as there seemed to be some erroneous responses to Dockhead's statement "Nor do I like the hull form at all, which resembles a Hanse with the plumb bow (no extra buoyancy)..." from post #81, above.

You will have to ask Dockhead why he prefers 'reserve buoyancy' but I will guess it has something to do with not getting washed overboard.

Regarding the bow that you posted above: I agree, that is a beauty. However, the boat would be unusable for me in its current state as there is no provision to handle a proper anchor. Give me a couple days time and some aluminum pipe and I could cobble up something real shippy ......

Steve
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Old 12-05-2016, 16:08   #100
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

We can agree to disagree. It is not wether the bow is plumb or not. It is the flair. I just don't like being a submarine. Seems like pitch poling is much more likely. A chop was mentioned. Slicing through a chop is nice. I would sacrifice speed when it is more than a chop.
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Old 12-05-2016, 16:28   #101
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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We can agree to disagree. It is not wether the bow is plumb or not. It is the flair. I just don't like being a submarine. Seems like pitch poling is much more likely. A chop was mentioned. Slicing through a chop is nice. I would sacrifice speed when it is more than a chop.
Then you probably would like the old English fishing trawler designs with upwards sloping plumb bows with little or no flair. Lots of reserve buoyancy and moderately fast for such heavy boats.

The relatively flat sheer on the boat in the picture is a current fad, or fashion if you will. Kind of looks like a dining room table cut into an A shape. Of course the reverse bows of the 1890s are also having a bit of a renaissance. Not sure why. The Navy is having some boats built that way. Shades of Commodore Perry.
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Old 12-05-2016, 18:25   #102
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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Impressive but Not the best test scenario though. Inshore with a known risk of grounding the keel should always be unlocked to allow it to lift. The real rest of a lifting keel system is a grounding with it locked down; will the locking system survive? Can it be unlocked? Can the lifting mechanism lift it with forces acting upon it other than the keel hanging free?

Add to that grounding in swell. Even if the keel is unlocked there will be massive shock loadings on the lifting mechanism as the boat pounds. If it's locked in swell you have real problems.

If the keel is unlocked and you ground in swell you can sometimes power the boat over the obstacle on the lifts provided that you can get the rudders out of the way.



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You can use a hydraulic locking mechanisim for the keel. One which has a couple of settings. So that when sailing near shore, & piloting, there's a relief valve in the hydraulic lock, which releases things at a certain amount of load/impact.

For oceanic work, & in storms etc. you set it to fully lock the keel in place, or at a Much higher setting on the relief valve.
Possibly even to have two seperate systems, so as to back each other up. In additon to use for different sailing types & conditions.

Plus, there are also a variety of ways to mechanically lock the keel fully down. To be used as stand alone systems, or in conjunction with hydraulic locking mechanisms. So that the keel's as secure as any thats integral to the boat, or bolted on.
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Old 12-05-2016, 18:36   #103
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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You can use a hydraulic locking mechanisim for the keel. One which has a couple of settings. So that when sailing near shore, & piloting, there's a relief valve in the hydraulic lock, which releases things at a certain amount of load/impact.

For oceanic work, & in storms etc. you set it to fully lock the keel in place, or at a Much higher setting on the relief valve.
Possibly even to have two seperate systems, so as to back each other up. In additon to use for different sailing types & conditions.

Plus, there are also a variety of ways to mechanically lock the keel fully down. To be used as stand alone systems, or in conjunction with hydraulic locking mechanisms. So that the keel's as secure as any thats integral to the boat, or bolted on.

Yes I know: just pointing out that it's not as easy as many think. I saw some plans for a nice hydraulic locking keel in Cape Town last winter and I'm hopeful that it's been built and I hope I can see it on the boat next month.

If course you don't always run aground going ahead and depending on the lock mechanism it may not release if grounding with sternway.

Hydraulics can be complex and heavy and have a habit of failing when needed most so the hand operated backups must be well thought through and tested too.


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Old 12-05-2016, 20:08   #104
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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No, the boats are similar in many aspects only the interior layout is different.

The Garcia 52 has a comfortable steering station on the forward part of the saloon with full view forward and around. Neither of them make my style but I have to say that if I lived permanently on a boat a Garcia 52 would make sense. The option to incorporate the nav/pilot station on the main living space contributes to an apparently bigger interior and is socially more agreeable.



Besides having an interior pilot station look for the cockpit protection of the Garcia 52:





Look at the interior Nav/pilot station:
I've sailed on a boat with a similar internal layout as to galley and salon and it was a complete PITA. Head and Nav. station forward so anyone working in the galley was interrupted by people going back and forth from the cockpit. I'm not sure where the engine access is on this boat but the one I was on was under the dinette table so the center settee had to be tilted back for access. This then partially blocked access to the head and the galley. Nice layout when everything went well and no one was working in the galley but horrible when there were engine or electrical problems.
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Old 12-05-2016, 21:34   #105
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Borealis

Regarding Hull Flare. There seems to be a misconception amongst many, that hull flare, for some reason, cannot be integrated into a plumb bowed boat. Why this is, I don't know. However, it is definitely not the case. One can draw such into the lines of such a vessel just as easily as with any other bow design.

However, one rarely sees it in boats with such bows. The most likely, & common sense reason for such, is that those boats don't need it. For they have far more hull volume up forward, than does anything with a raked stem. Thus preventing them from ever nose diving or pitching to the same degree as boats which don't have vertical bows. Given that boats with raked stems have Zero hull up forward to support the weight of the boat, & also to aid in resisting pitching/nose diving.

If they can design plum bowed VOR boats & Maxi's, which at times exceed 50kts, while going downwind, flying spinnakers in winds at times upwards of 50kts, sans said vessels pitch poling. Then I think that designers can figure out a way to safely pull off putting vertical bows in cruising boats. One's with plenty of buoyancy forward.
And, in point of fact, they have been, for a number of decades; well centuries actually. Though apparently, some haven't heard of such feats as yet.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Concerning the centrally located chain locker -- yes, I'm well aware of the complications, but this idea has been successfully implemented on a number of boats including Dashew's Sundeers and the Boreal. If you want a whole lot of heavy chain, and you don't want the bow loaded down, you don't really have much choice. Dashew likes to specify lighter but G70 chain, but I prefer for the chain to have some meat on it. So I think the central chain locker is the right compromise for me.

To the best of my knowledge, the Dashew's boats have their chain located in it's own (open) locker, forward of the boat's WT bulkhead.
The "weight issues" being taken care of by a full length, plumb bowed, buoyant canoe bodies. With plenty of volume in their forward sections.
As having the chain & ground tackle fully out of the living compartment keeps things much neater & cleaner.

In addition to which, in those boats, the forward 3-5m of the vessel is used for stowing such 'heavy' items as; sails, warps, fenders, awnings & the like.
So there's not a gigantic buoyancy challenge going on there. But it's easy enough to design it into boats which have vertical stems.

And if one looks at the traditional "cruising boats" going back almost a century, if not further. Their forepeaks as well, were dedicated to the storage of such similar items.

It is my belief that most cruising boats are seriously underbuilt, at least for the kind of sailing I do. My present boat has different pros and cons, but one of the big pros is that it is finally, after a lifetime of sailing different boats, strong enough under all circumstances. She is ridiculously overbuilt, with chainplates more massive than on a Swan 90, through-bolted bulkheads, massive frames and stringers, etc., which means she is just right for my taste -- finally a boat with a hull which doesn't "work" in a seaway in storm conditions. The next boat must be at least this strong.

There are a large percentage of cruising boats which are lightly, or under built. Without question. But then again, few take them to extreme latitudes, where the weather & sea conditions vary between brutal & extreme.
And at a certain point, a boat becomes so stout, & heavy that she can't fly enough sail in light air to make any speed. And her gear is so expensive, as to bankrupt all but those with the fattest wallets, or corporate backing.


Here's another Great example of an Expedition vessel. Kiwi Roa, the vessel belonging to Peter Smith, who invented the Rocna Anchor. She too is a heavy aluminum vessel. And there are great design & construction ideas incorporated into her also. About €œKiwi Roa€
And there's plenty more to be found on her "kiwi roa" sailboat - Bing

Concerning keel design -- I really don't know what the best way for this is. It seems impossible to get everything you might want so some big compromise or another will be necessary. Unfortunately when you get up to over 60', the depth of the fixed keel needed for decent performance upwind gives you a draft unfeasible for many places you might want to go. In the Baltic, 2.5m is maximum for a large proportion of yacht harbors. With more than that, you will very often have to stay outside at anchor or go to the fishing or commercial harbor, and even many of those won't accommodate a 3m (or more) draft. I have fairly serious problems with my present boat's draft, in the Baltic, already.

Draft is a compromise yes. However it needn't be deep simply because a vessel is 20m long. Properly designed, one can achieve a 2-3' deep canoe body in a 60' vessel. Such a proven is fact.
So, given that, if you add 3-5' of keel, your draft is still fairly shallow.

On the "smaller" 2 Sundeer's, their draft is 6'. While on the 64'er, it's 6.5' Even on the Dashew's last boat, Beowulf, which was by no measure, small, her draft was only a bit over 7'. And by all reports, all of these boats sailed upwind better than most things other than flat out racers.

The "trick" is integrating the design. And having all of the boat's "components"; hull, keel, rudder, rig, work together, for exceptional overall performance. Until this is done, then better performance cannot be achieved. And then, all of the design dictums of the '50's, or even '80's, apply.

And yet movable keels are, it seems to me, a huge weak point in a place where you absolutely don't want a weak point, on a boat to be sailed far from civilization. And on top of that, it's hard to get the ballast down where it needs to be, with a movable keel.

It's funny, as Skip Novak seems to think highly enough of such keels, that he specified one in his 2nd high latitude, Expedition boat. Pelagic Australis. Ditto on many other boats which ply such latitudes, many, professionally. And they're a Long, long way from "civilization".

A swing keel might be ok structurally, but how do you integrate that with a decent stub with ballast in it. A daggerboard keel just looks like trouble to me -- I remember how many times I broke the daggerboard trunk on the dinghy I sailed as a teenager, and nearly sank, every time the daggerboard touched the bottom. All that lever arm, operating on that area in case of a grounding -- I just don't think it can be made sufficiently strong. Same reason I wouldn't want a torpedo keel on a thin, deep, high aspect keel, on a high latitude boat, as great as that would be for upwind sailing.

There are hundreds of designs out there with moveable keels. On both professional, & recreational boats. It's a choice, but the systems & designs are proven.
For example: The owner of the boat "Rocket Science", to which I earlier posted a link, chimed in with the abridged specifics on how strong their bulbed fin keel is. As well as the spec's which it was designed to, regarding withstanding impacts.
It's VERY strong, & also has multiple layers of protection built in.

I really don't know how to deal with this and I guess the designer will have to help me.


As to clean sheet of paper designing -- obviously I want to avoid this if at all possible. My current profession involves designing stuff from clean sheets of paper using large teams of architects and engineers, and I am all too familiar with the complexity of the process, not to mention the risks, expense, etc. If there's anything fun about it, I get quite enough of it in my day job and don't really aspire to spending a couple of years doing it for my hobby.

But I've never seen a boat which came even close to doing what I need a boat to do, so I decided to think it through very, very thoroughly first, as if I had a clean sheet of paper, and prepare a really good, really thorough design brief -- something I know how to do, from my day job. Then when I get closer to being able to actually start the project, show the design brief to different designers and see what ideas they come up with. I will be delighted if I find something which can be adapted to my needs, even if this requires a lot of compromises.

One "trick" that I do, which I picked up in High School Drafting classes, is to get some graph paper, & an Architect's ruler. Which has 3 sides to it, incorporating half a dozen different measurement scales. Plus, get a flexible & or French curve as well.
And then sit down & draw out the profile shapes of various hulls, & hull sizes to scale. Incorporating the different components & features into them as you go.

Over time, you'll get so that you can & will be doing much of it in your head. And you'll also have a stack of drawings, done to scale.
It really helps, me at least, to visualize the pros & cons of various design layouts. Even to include bulkhead & spar placement configurations. Tankage, & all 3 dimensions of each piece of the boat, & system or space in it.

Also, there are a multiplicity of designs by various designers, out there on the web, from which you can pull both spec's, & ideas. Not just on layouts, but for incorporating things such as using your fresh water for ballast.
As, for example, if I build a 40'er, I'd want her to have BIG fresh water tanks, as far outboard as I could get them. And when I do the math on what's both possible, & reasonable in this regard, it's not too tough to use fresh water ballast to reduce her angle of heel by 7 deg.

By all accounts, you want to go to a designer with a stack of this kind of information. Whether it's on paper, magazine clippings, & regular photos. Or CAD files, jpg's, & organized notes on a flash drive.

And a good number of the designer's websites out there, have summaries of how the design process works. So the information is there but for the looking. Some of it which I posted earlier in this thread, & others which I've posted links to.

I actually want to look at a Boreal 52 in person -- it lacks a number of things I think I need, but does tick a surprising lot of boxes. Maybe it could work with some custom modifications. The best part is that it costs something like 1/4 or even 1/5 of what I think a custom build will cost me, so could greatly accelerate realization of this project.
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