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Old 09-05-2016, 19:32   #61
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

The Garcia Exploration is a true pilothouse. It is a very clever design incorporating a pilothouse into a centreboard yacht.
Here is a photo of the interior construction the Garcia Exploration 45 showing the view from the interior seating. I have not seen the 52 but it is a very similar concept only, not surprisingly bigger. The galley and lounge on both models have 270° views through the pilot house windows.




The other model that is worth considering is the KM Pure. This is a new model that has not received much publicity. Available with either a lifting keel (this is different from the unballasted centreboard in the Garcia and Boreal) or with a fixed keel.

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Old 09-05-2016, 21:39   #62
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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The other model that is worth considering is the KM Pure. This is a new model that has not received much publicity. Available with either a lifting keel (this is different from the unballasted centreboard in the Garcia and Boreal) or with a fixed keel.

Is that KM Pure another Dykstra design? Some nice stuff coming off his board and also out of that yard.

Pricey though. I'll never have that much coin and even if I did I doubt that I'd spend that much on a boat
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Old 09-05-2016, 21:46   #63
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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Is that KM Pure another Dykstra design? Some nice stuff coming off his board and also out of that yard.

Pricey though. I'll never have that much coin and even if I did I doubt that I'd spend that much on a boat
Ha! Apparently you haven't seen the postings where Noelex 77 is having a Bestevaer 49 built right now.

Bestevaer 49ST
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Old 09-05-2016, 22:07   #64
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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Ha! Apparently you haven't seen the postings where Noelex 77 is having a Bestevaer 49 built right now.

Bestevaer 49ST
Yes seen it... however that doesn't change my opinion or taste. To use a car analogy I'm more of a jeep or landrover guy over a BMW or Merc.. These things are not Jeeps or Landrovers no matter what the pretenses.

Doesn't mean I don't admire the engineering, innovation or technology. I even enjoy working on such posh beasts.

But I prefer to have something that I can sit with muddy boots and wet clothes after a hard hike or drag an anchor chain along the deck when I need it in a hurry or when the windlass has failed. Something that I don't care about when a fisherman ties up alongside in the night without fenders (or perhaps an old car tyre if your lucky). If you want an expedition boat and want to use it you'll get all of that at some stage hey

Each to their own.
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Old 09-05-2016, 22:21   #65
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Really like the concept of an all welded aluminum boat with pilothouse, especially if the boat is left unpainted, like some I've worked on. But a hard dodger or pilothouse can be added to virtually any boat. And I've built them in both wood and aluminum.

A hard dodger, with or without an aft curtain of Isinglass or screen, can serve well enough as a pilothouse, for many. One of mine has circumnavigated.
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Old 10-05-2016, 01:56   #66
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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Is that KM Pure another Dykstra design? Some nice stuff coming off his board and also out of that yard.
Yes, Dykstra designed the Bestevear 53 as his own, ideal, cruising yacht for retirement. He has subsequently designed bigger versions between 55 and 66 feet as well as slightly smaller versions 49 and 45 feet. The Pure is a spin-off of the Bestevaer 45 foot version. The major difference is a an effort to reduce the customisation. By limiting the options and standardising production the price can be kept more reasonable, while not unduly reducing the fundamental quality.


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Pricey though. I'll never have that much coin and even if I did I doubt that I'd spend that much on a boat
The cruising life is fantastic. I would encourage everyone to embrace this lifestyle if possible. There are plenty of bargains around and you certainly don't need an expensive boat.

The sunsets and the water views are the same .
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Old 10-05-2016, 03:20   #67
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Hi,

I recently discovered this German builder Sirius. It was the firs deck saloon that made sense for me. Perfect place to enjoy the ocean, with twin keels & beachable.




And the thing for me is really enjoyment.
Even though I completely understand the upgraded safety of a serious aluminum expedition boat with a pilot house there is one issue. Neither me or my wife would deliberately ever put ourselves in a sea state that would require the expedition boat. I think I would never put to use all the upgraded expeditions characteristic's because I just wouldnīt want to be in that position to have to use them.
Itīs like one expedition truck. Would I like to cross one continent in one? Sure!
Would I like to visit Paris or Rome in it? Never!
They are to specific - Itīs something I would rent but I wouldnīt own.

If I lived in Alaska.....maybe

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Old 10-05-2016, 04:09   #68
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

The drag from a well designed pilot house, or hard dodger, needn't be high at all. As putting together an aerodynamic shape's for one is pretty easy. It's all of the parasitic drag that tends to be the killer.
From windows & their trim rings which stand proud. To handrails placed in the wind's flow, instead of being integral to the design, or out of the wind. Plus all of the other accessories which you bolt onto it.

But one that's well put together, has less drag than; a dinghy in davits, solar panel farms, or those beastly stern arches. Let alone; all of the gear strapped on deck, lee cloths around the cockpit, or halyards run externally which could just as easily be internal.

Even the drag from one's standing rigging is huge. So it's a question of getting rid of all of the "little things", which help you to go to windward. Items as seemingly as insignificant as going from 12mm 1x19 wire, to 10mm Compacted Strand, add up.

That, & proper sail trim. As with them too, forgoing the little things with regards to trim, increases their drag greatly. In addition to reducing your pointing ability, while adding to your heeling moment. Plus, extra drag & weight aloft = more pitching. All of which combine to equal increased leeway, ergo, reduced VMG.

So cutting a boat's windage is a package deal. If one's ruthless about the above items. Sail trim included. It's easy to add 5 deg. or more to your pointing ability. While reducing your leeway, & angle of heel (comfort).
And the VMG gains only increase along with the windspeed (squared).
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Old 10-05-2016, 05:57   #69
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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Yes seen it... however that doesn't change my opinion or taste. To use a car analogy I'm more of a jeep or landrover guy over a BMW or Merc.. These things are not Jeeps or Landrovers no matter what the pretenses.

Doesn't mean I don't admire the engineering, innovation or technology. I even enjoy working on such posh beasts.

But I prefer to have something that I can sit with muddy boots and wet clothes after a hard hike or drag an anchor chain along the deck when I need it in a hurry or when the windlass has failed. Something that I don't care about when a fisherman ties up alongside in the night without fenders (or perhaps an old car tyre if your lucky). If you want an expedition boat and want to use it you'll get all of that at some stage hey

Each to their own.
Well Said! As it's much more appelaing to clean the mud & mung off of the floor in a hard dodger with a hose, than is likely the case with a pilot house.
Ditto on bringing "the wet" into one, via your soaked clothes/foulies. And or, having a "foyer"/mud room, to don & doff them in.

With regards to Terra Nova's comments. As I stated before: One option is to make a modular, disassembleable rear bulkhead for a hard dodger. Using light weight compositie panels. So that it's convertible to more of a pilot house, when conditions dictate.

Thus you can still have the perks of an enclosed, heated space, on deck. For watch keeping, entertaining, or lounging. Sans clogging up the traffic flow, or natural ventillation, when in warm climates.
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Old 10-05-2016, 07:38   #70
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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Well Said! As it's much more appelaing to clean the mud & mung off of the floor in a hard dodger with a hose, than is likely the case with a pilot house.
Ditto on bringing "the wet" into one, via your soaked clothes/foulies. And or, having a "foyer"/mud room, to don & doff them in.

With regards to Terra Nova's comments. As I stated before: One option is to make a modular, disassembleable rear bulkhead for a hard dodger. Using light weight compositie panels. So that it's convertible to more of a pilot house, when conditions dictate.

Thus you can still have the perks of an enclosed, heated space, on deck. For watch keeping, entertaining, or lounging. Sans clogging up the traffic flow, or natural ventillation, when in warm climates.

I don't know....Seems pretty easy to clean off your boots under the pilothouse overhang like the shoes in this photo. Heck, a canvas screen could be dropped down covering the last few feet just like any other had dodger.

Just because it's pretty doesn't mean it's not functional.

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Old 10-05-2016, 07:59   #71
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Less windage anybody?

Well: LOWER HULL, in the first place.

No mast steps, less standing rigging, finer mast extrusion (a+b= carbon mast).

No dinghy onboard.

No davits.

NO NO NO windgenerator.

Etc.

I think windage from a well designed pilothouse / dodger is marginal in the light of the above.

If I thought ice, I would go pilot house even if I were to re-use an old fishing boat!

https://hurtigruten.global.ssl.fastl...sform=DownFill

Summer sailors simply do not get some concepts ;-(

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Old 10-05-2016, 09:59   #72
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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Less windage anybody?

Well: LOWER HULL, in the first place.

No mast steps, less standing rigging, finer mast extrusion (a+b= carbon mast).

No dinghy onboard.

No davits.

NO NO NO windgenerator.

Etc.

I think windage from a well designed pilothouse / dodger is marginal in the light of the above.

If I thought ice, I would go pilot house even if I were to re-use an old fishing boat!

https://hurtigruten.global.ssl.fastl...sform=DownFill

Summer sailors simply do not get some concepts ;-(

b.
I agree 100%.

By removing a mast and other parasite drag items, Panope's windward sailing performance did not change a noticeable amount with the addition of her pilothouse.

However, the ability to make progress to windward increased greatly with the addition of the pilothouse because the crew is more comfortable/ less fatigued.

Steve

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Old 10-05-2016, 11:24   #73
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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The cruising life is fantastic. I would encourage everyone to embrace this lifestyle if possible. There are plenty of bargains around and you certainly don't need an expensive boat.
Yes that's why I can't afford an expensive boat, cruising doesn't pay well
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Old 10-05-2016, 11:35   #74
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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However, the ability to make progress to windward increased greatly with the addition of the pilothouse because the crew is more comfortable/ less fatigued.
Yes - the problem is that the mindset of most people is in short passages, maybe just hours of beating, or just a day or two. Anybody can stand it for a few hours to a few days.

They don't think about days of slogging upwind. Which can happen anywhere, even on a trade wind route in an el Nino year as many found out this year.
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Old 10-05-2016, 11:39   #75
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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Just because it's pretty doesn't mean it's not functional.
Fine if your not going to cry when the fishing boat runs down the side and scratches it Or your climbing friend drags his crampons across something.

The OP wants an Ali boat it seems, which is fine, but paint on an Ali deck just doesn't stay there especially on a boat doing expedition style sailing. Doesn't matter how well done it is it comes off eventually and that eventually comes around depressingly often.
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