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Old 07-05-2016, 13:38   #46
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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A high latitude boat must had a hard dodger or otherwise protected steering and watch-keeping position period.

This fold down dodger to reduce windage mantra is I'm afraid some leftover from days gone by. It must be forgotten about right now!

When it is cold and blowing the watchkeeper must be in shelter to be effective and a fold down dodger will have either blown away, been ripped off by the sea (even if it is folded down) or heaven forbid actually folded down! It is then no use when it needs to be of most use.

Sure there is windage penalty but so is there a windage penalty for the roller furling that you can't take down, and the radar arch and the solar panels and the all the other crap that is on a modern cruising boat. No the dodger must stay it must be strong enough to withstand the sea and the wind.

Others were quoting the move to dodgers in the modern race boats. It is now accepted, and long known, that the better protected the crew are the more rested, fitter and alert they are. That does not only apply to race crews.

A well designed hard dodger need not be a terrible penalty in the tropics either. Mine was designed with quite steep sides to reduce the amount of sun which comes through (at high sun elevations) and provides good shade. We do not feel that it turns the cockpit into an oven although maybe in the future I'll put opening portlights in the front to allow more airflow when at anchor. You never sail directly upwind so those are not needed for airflow at sea.

Mine is only a dodger. It does not have a watertight door, simply a roll down and zip cover which is enough to keep the wind and rain off if downwind. However the next one will have a watertight door.
I have a pilothouse and a wide (not very high) soft dodger on top of the pilothouse. The soft dodger is mostly on, so it could quite well be also hard. I don't usually lower it when going upwind since especially then it is very nice and needed to stop the highest splashes. In a really bad weather I could and would of course fold it down and steer inside. The OP however wants to minimize upwind windage, and have a doghouse or a pilothouse. The discussed Boreal 44 seems to have both a raised saloon windscreen and a doghouse windscreen, which might add up to more windage than wanted.

In a cold climate doghouse and pilothouse are nice since inside you don't need any more clothes than a T-shirt. Behind a dodger you need warm clothes but at least you can stay dry when sailing upwind in a heavy weather.

In the tropics protection from the sun might have highest priority. That is actually quite important also in the north.
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Old 07-05-2016, 14:13   #47
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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In the tropics protection from the sun might have highest priority. That is actually quite important also in the north.
Or the south! But not really an issue as you are usually clothed in high latitudes and just need some sunscreen on your nose and to add a brim on your hat, provided it's no so windy that it blows off!

Many boats do not have inside steering or visibility though and that is where the hard dodger/ doghouse / pilothouse comes in.

I don't think that windage is a concern on a Boreal. They are quite sleek boats, the freeboard is not high, much lower than say Halberg Rassy of the same length.
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Old 07-05-2016, 15:04   #48
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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I don't think that windage is a concern on a Boreal. They are quite sleek boats, the freeboard is not high, much lower than say Halberg Rassy of the same length.
Yes, there are many styles, some sleeker than others. A one person size doghouse could be the sleekest option for the OP. But he expressed also some interest in having a sizeable pilothouse that would allow also other people than the helmsman to enjoy the views. I guess the target is a large (50'+ category) boat with full size living quarters, with an inside steering station, low windage, and maybe a 360° view pilothouse. A flat and sleek pilothouse could be one way to achieve all that. I was wondering if also the benefits of a doghouse (easy access, close to cockpit) could be included in that approach.
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Old 07-05-2016, 23:44   #49
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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A high latitude boat must had a hard dodger or otherwise protected steering and watch-keeping position period.
Or you toughen up

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Old 08-05-2016, 00:34   #50
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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Or you toughen up
Been there, done that!
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Old 08-05-2016, 01:57   #51
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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A high latitude boat must had a hard dodger or otherwise protected steering and watch-keeping position period.
I completely agree! But I note a bunch of french and others seem to run down south with minimal protection year after year. Tough? Or just crazy? I dont know. Even Pelagic 1's helm is a bit exposed for my liking... he did much better with no 2.

Its a big trade of dodger wise, do you go soft dodger, open hard dodger, enclosed hard dodger, or a full pilothouse/raised saloon. There seems to be good examples of each out there and they all have pluses and minuses, but are much better than nothing.

I really like the boreal compromise. The salon is raised enough to be light and airy without being too high. And the enclosed hard dodger/watchstation gives you a nice place to watch the world go by, being enclosed all the nav gear is out of the weather and also secure in harbour. Its height means you can see over dinghys on the foredeck, and you have a good alround view. I also see this space as being a really nice private reading/office space at anchor or in port.

They also incorporate a porch behind the hard enclosed dodger to protect the crew and the entrance. So it has some of the benefits of the open dodgers.

A big plus for an enclosed hard dodger is the potential benefit to reducing your inverted stability. I wouldnt be at all supprised to find that its needed to get the right sort of STIX numbers for the boreals. This works well as long as the door stays shut! But if it doesnt the FSE of the water sloshing around will help bring her up quickly enough.
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Old 08-05-2016, 02:06   #52
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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Been there, done that!
That almost looks a bit summery there

The crazies on Barba moved here north to Tromsø in Jan this year





They do all of their cruising in high latitudes in a boat designed more for racing/cruising in the med. Just goes to show anything is possible.

Whilst Barba is the baby sister of my boat, I have zero desire to emulate them and if I for some reason decided I wanted to go to high or low latitudes, I'd rather not toughen up and get a boat with a cosy & warm pilothouse
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Old 08-05-2016, 02:18   #53
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Dockhead,

Since you like your alu yachts and have an irrational love affair with Scandinavia, have you seen the Adventure 55?

Adventure 55 | Adventure Yachts

The hull is made in Germany and shipped to Orust for fitting out.

"This particular model acts as a foundation and a base, from where we will design your unique yacht according to your preferences and desires."

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Old 08-05-2016, 04:09   #54
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

That adventure 55 even has a dinghy garage for you dockhead.

Aside from the silly little twin rudders she looks very good, and in truth as long as the rudders are built really really strong they are probably fine.

I'd want a little boreal style pilothouse as well.

A minor benefit of the enclosed dodger/pilothouse concept is that the bulkhead at the aft end makes it very strong. No issues fitting a mainsheet onto it, and some solid boom gallows.
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Old 08-05-2016, 05:10   #55
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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That adventure 55 even has a dinghy garage for you dockhead.
I was thinking that also.

BTW it is reviewed in the latest (May) Yachting World mag

It even features a workroom aft (I guess port by the dinghy garage) which in a photo from the yachting world article, showed a vice on a bench and a porthole for a view.
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Old 08-05-2016, 11:27   #56
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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I completely agree! But I note a bunch of french and others seem to run down south with minimal protection year after year. Tough? Or just crazy? I dont know. Even Pelagic 1's helm is a bit exposed for my liking... he did much better with no 2.
Yes but they are running old boats in the main and can't be bothered to modify them I guess

Pelagic's helm is very exposed, I can attest to that, and originally there was no dodger at all just a spray hood over the hatch.

Pelagic Australis' helm is very protected with the sliding roof pulled back. Only problem is that it was designed for people of >6' in height and not for dwarfs like me!
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Old 09-05-2016, 03:55   #57
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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Dockhead,

Since you like your alu yachts and have an irrational love affair with Scandinavia, have you seen the Adventure 55?

Adventure 55 | Adventure Yachts

The hull is made in Germany and shipped to Orust for fitting out.

"This particular model acts as a foundation and a base, from where we will design your unique yacht according to your preferences and desires."

Nice looking boat. Though I'm not fully in love with the location of the engine.
With regards to wtin rudders, a lot of boats that have them seem to fair pretty well. But one nice option for them, is to have them designed, kick-up style. With them on, or built into (& just underneath of) the transom. Though, yes, if not done right, such does interfere with a dinghy garage.

But for dinghy storage, with intelligent design, it's not too tough to draw a boat of 40' or greater, with a spot for the tender to be stored on deck, aft.

Such is definitely on my priority list if/when I build a boat of 13m+/-. Even to (also) include a hard dodger.

Dockhead, what's the drive behind your seeming infatuation with center cockpits? And some of my asking, is that on a lot of vessels, they seem to limit one's options for boarding & water activities from the transom & cockpit. Or is that not a concern?
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Old 09-05-2016, 13:35   #58
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

If one as the money for it the Boreal 52 is a much nicer boat, not only better looking but with a true Pilot house.

If the boat one wants is a centerboarder with full pilot house the other Option is the Garcia 52 (much better the 45). It shares many of the features of the Boreal 55 maybe in a more refined way (regarding the interior). I had the pleasure to have a very detailed guided visit at the Dusseldorf boat show by one of the factory boat developers and I was quite impressed.


One of the things I learned with the visit was that they are considering a swing keel version, kind of a Pogo Keel very deep and with all ballast on the keel. That would make an even more interesting boat, faster (less ballast), more stiff and with a better upwind performance. More expensive dough.
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Old 09-05-2016, 14:34   #59
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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If the boat one wants is a centerboarder with full pilot house the other Option is the Garcia 52 (much better the 45).
Does it have a pilot house at all? I thought Garcia were raised salon style.

The one I saw here (40 something, maybe 45) did not have a proper pilot house, even the dodger looked 'short'ish'.

If I were to judge by what is visible externally, Garcia is not an alternative to Boreal. They look way different.

Boats are so very personal. I would buy a Boreal, if I could afford one, I would never buy a Garcia though.

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Old 09-05-2016, 17:35   #60
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Borealis

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.

Concerning pilothouse -- I am torn by the desire to have that above-deck living you talk about -- and the desire to reduce windage.

I will need to do some more thinking about that, and get a good designer to help me, since windage is an objective question of forces involved.

It may be that I am over-worrying. After all, when beating, which is when you really care about windage the most, with the boat heeled somewhat, the pilothouse will be partially in the lee of the gunwales anyway, if it is reasonably low.

But one thing I am obsessed with is getting really good upwind performance out of the next boat, and this demands meticulous attention to windage absolutely everywhere it can appear.

The Boreal besides having a very small doghouse, has it in a highly aerodynamic shape -- very, very nice. It has really given me pause for thought.

Another thing is I suppose I will have a better chance of combing a center cockpit with proper after deck with a small doghouse like that, than with any kind of real pilothouse. I continue to dislike aft cockpits on boats of this size (60'+).

These tradeoffs of course are excruciatingly difficult.
The pilothouse on my 60'+ is all about livability and visibility so that we can enjoy and monitor our surroundings while seated or lounging at the ph table in lousy weather.

I see boats with low profile raised salon and then quite a high Dodger to protect them at the cockpit.... So not quite sure which one pays the greater windage penalty.

As you can see on 2nd photo...view from cockpit is very clear and when sailing hard to windward the PH is mostly in the Lee.

I actually prefer an aft cockpit and at that size, can be a walk in affair, which affords ultimate drainage, ease of access and only one water tight door properly facing aft.

Also the most efficient use of space by creating a comfortable 4 step half level to PH from deck , then another 4 step down aft to owner's area and ER access.

These half levels, keep the ceiling heights consistent while following the lowest profile in a flowing way towards the higher stern .

After 11 years of ownership, there is nothing in the basic design or layout, I would change.
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