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Old 15-06-2016, 18:29   #541
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Hydraulic steering is something I would avoid, as it all but eliminates any tactile feedback. Cable over pulley provides great feel, is reliable, and is simple to maintain and repair.
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Old 16-06-2016, 06:06   #542
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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Hydraulic steering is something I would avoid, as it all but eliminates any tactile feedback. Cable over pulley provides great feel, is reliable, and is simple to maintain and repair.
True, and important if you are racing, but for long distance cruising, most will be under auto pilot and hydraulic system way easier on the auto pilot system. Plus more reliable.
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Old 16-06-2016, 09:33   #543
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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Hydraulic steering is something I would avoid, as it all but eliminates any tactile feedback. Cable over pulley provides great feel, is reliable, and is simple to maintain and repair.
That in conjunction with sailboats generally having a rudder the size of a barn door, due to lack of prop wash for maneuvering account for a large helm wheel. I better qualify that while under sail, or someone would make an issue of it.
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Old 16-06-2016, 10:03   #544
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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That in conjunction with sailboats generally having a rudder the size of a barn door, due to lack of prop wash for maneuvering account for a large helm wheel. I better qualify that while under sail, or someone would make an issue of it.
Think barn doors were replaced about 100 years ago with more streamlined versions. Size does matter if you are going downhill. But that is mostly how deep the rudder goes(its bite, so to speak) into the water. Deeper, the better.
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Old 16-06-2016, 10:26   #545
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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Think barn doors were replaced about 100 years ago with more streamlined versions. Size does matter if you are going downhill. But that is mostly how deep the rudder goes(its bite, so to speak) into the water. Deeper, the better.
So they are deeper, still have more wetted surface than the postage stamps on many power boats. Feedback is nice, power boats you can aim.
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Old 16-06-2016, 10:43   #546
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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So they are deeper, still have more wetted surface than the postage stamps on many power boats. Feedback is nice, power boats you can aim.
Never had a powerboat that did not wander at low speed.
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Old 16-06-2016, 10:53   #547
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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Never had a powerboat that did not wander at low speed.
That's just a side effect of the issue Cadence talks about. Having small rudder needs more prop wash..

Ps. Planning boats have different issues..
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Old 16-06-2016, 10:58   #548
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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True, and important if you are racing, but for long distance cruising, most will be under auto pilot and hydraulic system way easier on the auto pilot system. Plus more reliable.
One advantage of an autopilot is that it is, or at least it should be, a system that is independent of the main steering system.

An autopilot that is directly driving the rudder stock can still be used if the main steering system fails.

I have never owned a boat with hydraulic steering, but an autopilot system that drives a hydraulic pump would mean that a failure of the hydraulic system (leak etc) would disable all steering. Not ideal.

Perhaps I missing something, but I don't see a hydraulic system as a plus from the point of view of installing an autopilot.
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Old 16-06-2016, 11:06   #549
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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...I don't see a hydraulic system as a plus from the point of view of installing an autopilot.
Only that it is easier to hookup the drive pump.
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Old 16-06-2016, 11:15   #550
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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I have never owned a boat with hydraulic steering, but an autopilot system that drives a hydraulic pump would mean that a failure of the hydraulic system (leak etc) would disable all steering. Not ideal.

Perhaps I missing something, but I don't see a hydraulic system as a plus from the point of view of installing an autopilot.
Not having any statistics about it but I'd say hydraulic steering is somewhere around 50 times more reliable than one with wires.. Just IMHO
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Old 16-06-2016, 12:32   #551
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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One advantage of an autopilot is that it is, or at least it should be, a system that is independent of the main steering system.

An autopilot that is directly driving the rudder stock can still be used if the main steering system fails.

I have never owned a boat with hydraulic steering, but an autopilot system that drives a hydraulic pump would mean that a failure of the hydraulic system (leak etc) would disable all steering. Not ideal.

Perhaps I missing something, but I don't see a hydraulic system as a plus from the point of view of installing an autopilot.
Its mostly plug and play. Autopilot goes to the helm, helm to the hydraulic system, and you are done. Plus way less effort on the autopilot to "steer" with a hydraulic system. Its also safer to have the pilot connected to the helm rather than direct to the rudder post in case the pilot dies.
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Old 16-06-2016, 14:35   #552
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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...
Yes, the boat will be self-steered most of the time, while on a passage; another reason I would never have twin wheels on my own boat. The super-wide transom I consider an aberration, a fad, and not fitting the requirements of a seaworthy vessel.

Of course I favor the canoe stern.

You should hear the man that had designed most canoe stern boats on the water, Bob Perry:

"... why did I make the Valiant 40 a double ender? Marketing! It was just assumed that offshore cruising boats had to be double enders and rather than buck that trend I decided to go with it ....

Years later, with the IOR making people angry, a reactionary movement sprung up in the cruising community. Heavy, slow, salty, Colin Archer type double enders propelled by the Westsail movement were the accepted boats for offshore cruising.

For some reason double enders were seen as safer offshore boats. This probably came from the Colin Archer lifeboat tradition. But there were all sorts of strange theories as to why the double ender was the best hull form for offshore. “The stern parts the following seas.” I call this the “Moses effect”. Maybe the stern parts the following sea because there is not enough buoyancy aft for the stern to rise to the following sea. “There is more reserve buoyancy aft.” ...

Yes, a canoe stern can give you far more buoyancy aft than a Westsail type stern but a nice broad transom stern with some overhang will have far more buoyancy aft than a canoe stern.

“In a double ender... I’m not certain it makes a boat more seaworthy or sea kindly. ...

At the other end of the dining table I could hear a discussion going on about the benefits of the canoe stern. I thought to myself, “What BS.” If any boat is going to spend it’s life moving forward the best way to end the boat is with a transom. The bow and the stern do very different jobs. The stern should not look like the bow.

I don’t think there really is a cogent argument for why double enders are the best sea boats. But if you insist on sailing around in reverse I think a double ender makes the most sense....."
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Old 16-06-2016, 14:39   #553
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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Not having any statistics about it but I'd say hydraulic steering is somewhere around 50 times more reliable than one with wires.. Just IMHO
Can you explain that a bit more? With wires it is just a direct system with hydraulics there are a lot more things that can fail.
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Old 16-06-2016, 15:03   #554
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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Not having any statistics about it but I'd say hydraulic steering is somewhere around 50 times more reliable than one with wires.. Just IMHO
But not more reliable than my favourite, a tiller .

Traditionally the main advantage of hydraulic systems is that multiple steering stations (say cockpit and pilothouse) are easily to arrange These days with autopilot push button wireless remote controls this advantage is largely lost. There are still yachts where hydraulic steering systems are the sensible alternative, but it not the preferred system in my view.

I agree the traditional wire system has a lot of failure points. If you want a wheel the direct drive wheel systems like rod and pinion seem more reliable. No system is 100% reliable and steering is such a vital component that I think it worth installing some redundancy. The autopilot can provide a separate steering system and you should take advantage of this feature if possible.
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Old 16-06-2016, 15:10   #555
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Another boat that seems to fit Dockhead criteria is the aluminium Bestevaer 55:









Specially now that they offer a swing keel with all the ballasts on the keel as an option.
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