Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 14-06-2016, 15:11   #526
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,765
Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panope View Post
Somebody help me understand how the helms-person has good all around visibility when this boat is healed.

If steering from the "high side", the head sail blocks a significant portion of the view ahead and to port. If steering for the "low side", the hull (being wide) blocks EVERYTHING to starboard.

What am I missing?

Steve

Missing not have tried it on a boat like that. The visibility is very good and I am talking the one that matters most: the place you put your bow regarding to waves. That is what steering is about, otherwise you connect the autopilot and can seat on the cockpit.
__________________

Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2016, 15:18   #527
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,750
Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panope View Post
Dockhead, I guess I am somewhat of an outlier when it comes to keeping a lookout, in that I believe visibility should be given more importance than it typically is. I hate the way my wife's car (Prius) A-pillars are unnecessarily placed far forward and therefore obstructing significant forward visibility. Hate the way many small aircraft are blind over the nose in a climb. And I am sure I would hate having to leave my seat at the helm and walk to the other side of that wide boat to see around the jib.

Adding a pilothouse complicates the matter even further as not only does the windward rail rise into the view, the leeward pilothouse-roof lowers down into the view. The solution to this problem is to either have lots of skylights/viewports in the roof or have extremely tall side windows.

I suppose that out on the open sea, a large swell will cause enough rolling motion to give regular peek-a-boo views. In-shore/flat water - no such luck, and that is where most of the things to hit are located.

Steve

I completely agree with you, actually. For me that was always a big deal with cars. I drove Porsche 911s for decades, and during those decades when cars had long hoods, and you sat low in them, which I hated so much -- and one of the several things I adored about the 911s, and not the least of them, was the way you could see the road, you could almost see the road passing underneath the front bumper. It makes an enormous difference to the whole experience.

So I certainly struggle with this in my hypothetical boat design, and the pilothouse of course makes it that much harder.

But you should really try twin wheels, before you knock it. It's a different and much better view. It does not eliminate the blind spot under the jib, but as I wrote -- nothing eliminates that blind spot, other than a crewman posted on the lee side on visual watch peering under it -- which I actually do sometimes.
__________________

__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-être pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2016, 15:26   #528
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,105
Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panope View Post
Somebody help me understand how the helms-person has good all around visibility when this boat is healed.

If steering from the "high side", the head sail blocks a significant portion of the view ahead and to port. If steering for the "low side", the hull (being wide) blocks EVERYTHING to starboard.

What am I missing?

Steve
Common sense would be my guess.
__________________
reed1v is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2016, 21:10   #529
Registered User
 
Panope's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Washington State
Boat: Colvin, Saugeen Witch (Aluminum), 34'
Posts: 1,593
Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post

Missing not have tried it on a boat like that. The visibility is very good and I am talking the one that matters most: the place you put your bow regarding to waves. That is what steering is about, otherwise you connect the autopilot and can seat on the cockpit.
I agree that the visibility directly ahead will be great on the high side of a wide boat.

I disagree completely with your assertion that the visibility that matters most is in regard to placing the bow on waves. It is fine for you to believe that but you cannot force your belief onto me.

For me, the most important part of watch-keeping is collision avoidance.

Steve
Panope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2016, 21:36   #530
Registered User
 
Panope's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Washington State
Boat: Colvin, Saugeen Witch (Aluminum), 34'
Posts: 1,593
Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I completely agree with you, actually. For me that was always a big deal with cars. I drove Porsche 911s for decades, and during those decades when cars had long hoods, and you sat low in them, which I hated so much -- and one of the several things I adored about the 911s, and not the least of them, was the way you could see the road, you could almost see the road passing underneath the front bumper. It makes an enormous difference to the whole experience.

So I certainly struggle with this in my hypothetical boat design, and the pilothouse of course makes it that much harder.

But you should really try twin wheels, before you knock it. Oh, I have nothing against twin wheels. I am sure it is great on a wide boat. My complaint is only pertaining to WIDE sail boats and the inability to find a spot on-board where one (singular person) can have 360 degree visibility when healed. It's a different and much better view. It does not eliminate the blind spot under the jib, but as I wrote -- nothing eliminates that blind spot, On a narrow boat, it is completely reasonable to cut the foot of the head sail high enough to see under (like my boat). On a wide boat, one needs to perch on the high side and therefore impossible to see under any "reasonable" head sail. other than a crewman posted on the lee side on visual watch peering under it -- which I actually do sometimes. Thank you. that answers a big question I have. Big/wide boat = two person watch.


For those that insist on decksweeping head sails, I have drawn this sketch showing the larger obscured area of the wider boat. Both boats are the same length with the same head sail. On the narrow boat, the helms person can possibly LEAN far enough one way or the other to see around the headsail. On the wide boat, only a WALK to the leeward side will work.

Steve


Panope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-06-2016, 06:35   #531
Registered User
 
hoppy's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 40
Posts: 2,842
Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

How about drawing the same with the helmsman at the leeward helm and for a laugh a central helm.




Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________
S/Y Jessabbé http://www.jessabbe.com/
hoppy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-06-2016, 10:29   #532
Registered User
 
Panope's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Washington State
Boat: Colvin, Saugeen Witch (Aluminum), 34'
Posts: 1,593
Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoppy View Post
How about drawing the same with the helmsman at the leeward helm and for a laugh a central helm.
It is difficult to predict sightlines with my (admittedly) simplistic drawings. However, it seems clear to me that a person on the leeward side of a (healed) wide boat will have obscured vision to windward.

It appears that the modern wide boat cockpits tend to rise up a considerable amount when healed. Even if the helmsperson was centered (and could still see over the windward rail) his eye would be so high that any reasonable headsail will still block the view.

It may be that a wide boat heals less than a similar sized narrow boat so perhaps this tendency is less of an issue than I am imagining?

Steve

Panope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-06-2016, 14:20   #533
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,765
Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panope View Post
For those that insist on decksweeping head sails, I have drawn this sketch showing the larger obscured area of the wider boat. Both boats are the same length with the same head sail. On the narrow boat, the helms person can possibly LEAN far enough one way or the other to see around the headsail. On the wide boat, only a WALK to the leeward side will work.

Steve


Except that the eyes on the twin wheel set up are not there but near the lifelines on the more outside and also that the wheelsman on the beamy two wheel boats is up on the air, while the one on the narrow single wheel boat is down.

That confirma a much better view of the sea ahead of the bow.

I really don't understand your point. Steering is about boat control and regarding that the view of the bow and the sea ahead is essential. For checking the traffic around from time to time, if alone, you can turn the autopilot on and have a good view around from where you have a good view regarding blind spots.

It is what most sailors do. Visibility ahead has to do with the type of head sail you are using. Light boats like the X-yachts will only need a jib while a heavier boat will need to use a big genoa then again, regarding visibility ahead, a light boat like X-yacht will have advantages regarding a heavier boat.

Imagine that this boat has a small wheel and that it has to be sailed from behind the wheel. Would be the visibility ahead (sea ahead) better? Off course not!


I don't understand how you can argue that the forward view from the center of the boat is better than the one from the side up in the air.

And it is not about twin wheel or single wheel, if the boat is sportive a very good view forward of the boat is essential for better steering and the ones that don't have twin wheels have a big single one that allows you to steer the boat from the same advantageous position, the same notwithstanding the wheel set up. With a tiller you will be seeting there also, on the same position.




Twin wheels versus single wheel in what regards efficiency in steering has not to do with the steering position but with allowing a much easier reach of the forward winches if sailing solo or to allow "passengers" an easier passage to the water or to the quay (med mooring).
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-06-2016, 14:47   #534
Registered User
 
hoppy's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 40
Posts: 2,842
Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panope View Post
It is difficult to predict sightlines with my (admittedly) simplistic drawings. However, it seems clear to me that a person on the leeward side of a (healed) wide boat will have obscured vision to windward.

It appears that the modern wide boat cockpits tend to rise up a considerable amount when healed. Even if the helmsperson was centered (and could still see over the windward rail) his eye would be so high that any reasonable headsail will still block the view.

It may be that a wide boat heals less than a similar sized narrow boat so perhaps this tendency is less of an issue than I am imagining?

Steve


On the "odd occasion" I choose to helm my yacht I prefer to do it from the leeward side as I have a great view of the tell rails on the Genoa. For the view hidden behind the sail I have to move very little and standing at the leeward helm generally gives me a full view of the windward side.


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________
S/Y Jessabbé http://www.jessabbe.com/
hoppy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-06-2016, 14:47   #535
Registered User
 
TeddyDiver's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arctic Ocean
Boat: Under construction 35' ketch
Posts: 1,828
Images: 2
Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Steering is about boat control and regarding that the view of the bow and the sea ahead is essential. For checking the traffic around from time to time, if alone, you can turn the autopilot on and have a good view around from where you have a good view regarding blind spots.
.........
Twin wheels versus single wheel in what regards efficiency in steering has not to do with the steering position but with allowing a much easier reach of the forward winches.
Considering cruising sailor having an autopilot it's on constantly so wheel position doesn't matter, thou I could be sitting on the weather side in that case too. But never sailed with one and I love it without. The position doesn't matter so much, or I'm chancing it maybe every ten to fifteen minutes, standing, sitting, lying, lee side, weather side or center hand or foot on the wheel. Time to time changing course to have a peak to the blind spot behind the foresails.

It's a long way down from that steering position to the forward winches IMO..

BR Teddy
__________________
TeddyDiver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-06-2016, 15:47   #536
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 94
Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

all this visibility talk, could be solved with a simple and cheap camera system
__________________
packeteer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-06-2016, 16:00   #537
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,765
Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Going back to pilot houses, some nice photos of the Futuna explorer 54 that has a hull very similar to other French aluminium voyage boats but has a somewhat different pilot house.




and as to was to be expected from a Bernard Nivelt design, a good sailing performance for the type of boat:
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-06-2016, 16:20   #538
Registered User
 
Panope's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Washington State
Boat: Colvin, Saugeen Witch (Aluminum), 34'
Posts: 1,593
Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
I really don't understand your point.

My point is that I do not want to have to continuously walk to a different part of the boat in order to avoid collisions with another boat.

I don't understand how you can argue that the forward view from the center of the boat is better than the one from the side up in the air.

I am not. I am arguing that the view to leeward is better from the center.
Steve
Panope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-06-2016, 18:13   #539
Registered User
 
Terra Nova's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Marina del Rey, California
Boat: Freya 39 cutter- Terra Nova
Posts: 3,650
Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Quote:
Originally Posted by TeddyDiver View Post
Considering cruising sailor having an autopilot it's on constantly so wheel position doesn't matter...
Of course it matters! Though I much prefer a tiller, TN came with a wheel. One that's very exposed. With a tiller, I could sit forward, protected by the dodger. And the tiny cockpit would provide more room. TN also has a wind vane self steerer that is not yet installed.

Yes, the boat will be self-steered most of the time, while on a passage; another reason I would never have twin wheels on my own boat. The super-wide transom I consider an aberration, a fad, and not fitting the requirements of a seaworthy vessel.

Of course I favor the canoe stern.

__________________
1st rule of yachting: When a collision is unavoidable, aim for something cheap.
"whatever spare parts you bring, you'll never need"--goboatingnow
"Id rather drown than have computers take over my life."--d design
Terra Nova is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-06-2016, 18:18   #540
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,105
Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terra Nova View Post
Of course it matters! Though I much prefer a tiller, TN came with a wheel. One that's very exposed. With a tiller, I could sit forward, protected by the dodger. And the tiny cockpit would provide more room. TN also has a wind vane self steerer that is not yet installed.

Yes, the boat will be self-steered most of the time, while on a passage; another reason I would never have twin wheels on my own boat. The super-wide transom I consider an aberration, a fad, and not fitting the requirements of a seaworthy vessel.

Of course I favor the canoe stern.

Got to agree about canoe sterns. We often wished we had more of a one. Downwind really comes in handy, especially in breaking following seas. tillers really are cumbersome once your boat is beyond 30 feet. With hydraulic steering you can set up multiple steering stations to keep out of the weather.
__________________

__________________
reed1v is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Boreal Sailboats Highwayman Monohull Sailboats 3 25-04-2016 12:43
Jedi's White Bread with Variations s/v Jedi Provisioning: Food & Drink 1 15-02-2011 20:25
gulf 32 pilothouse bearhill Monohull Sailboats 26 06-12-2008 08:58



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 13:42.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.