Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 05-06-2016, 08:58   #451
Registered User
 
Juho's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Finland
Boat: Nauticat 32
Posts: 716
Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Quote:
Originally Posted by poiu View Post
One thing I can't reconcile with these pilothouse yachts is that it doesn't seem possible to sit in a cool breezy cockpit and keep watch without standing up every 5 minutes to peer over the pilothouse in the warm places of the world all that standing up and sitting down is going to become tiresome. Of course if you are sailing in cold places you might be happy to keep watch from indoors.
Having a pilothouse + low dodger on top of it is not much different from having a dodger of the same height. Of course in the second case you can fold the whole dodger away when needed, but in the first case only half of the obstruction.

When sailing you often sit on either side and the boat heels, in which case you can see forward from the left or right side of the pilothouse. You can see forward also by looking through the pilothouse. This way you can see under the genoa too. I need to bend a bit downwards to do this. If I stand up, I can see over the dodger. And of course I can see through the dodger. My dodger has however just a plastic window.

A pilothouse boat could alternatively have a high rear cabin and a "cockpit" on top of it. In this case you can always see over the pilothouse. This is however not Dochkhead's favourite solution, I believe.

The pilothouse is thus always some kind of an obstruction, but depending on how high you sit and how high the pilothouse is, it can be also below your line of sight (even with a deep cockpit). It is typical that the seat of the helmsman is a bit higher than the other seats. Seeing through the pilothouse (with glass windows) can sometimes be a benefit. This is not necessarily possible through a "raised saloon", but a proper "pilothouse" that is intended for steering inside has also a proper windscreen with decent visibility forward.

From sailing point of view, pilothouse is just a large but low fixed dodger (with rather heavy "upper rim") to me.

Quite often I use the autopilot and stand in front of the steering wheel, just behind the dodger, maybe leaning to it, close to all the lines, well protected from the potentially cool breeze and potential splashes (except my head), sitting occasionally on the left or right edge of the cockpit (not on the seat but one step higher, often leaning to the wooden rail). A flat deck would give me better visibility, but most boats have some sort of a dodger anyway, so it could be also a low pilothouse.
__________________

__________________
Juho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2016, 09:15   #452
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Caribbean
Boat: Oyster 66
Posts: 973
Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Thanks -- interesting.

It has a lot of Dashew DNA in it -- as if they were trying to combine a Sundeer ketch with a FPB power boat.

It's a heavyweight with a lot of power boat genes in it, and that's not quite what I want, and rather windage-ridden, too.

It also lacks a multitude of Dashew details.

I also dislike the davits (although I admit that at this size, davits start working better), and hate the Ikea furniture.

But it's still a very interesting boat with a lot of good features.
It is an interesting design.

I don't think the windage is too bad. You are committed to some sort of a pilothouse anyway and it is quite low. When sailing into wind the heeled boat should shelter most of it. It has davits and an arch, but you can chop them off easily enough. Likewise the covered cockpit can be reduced and I think it is made to have the windows removed. It has two masts, but that allows backstay-less sails and so with a full roach squarish head. That should increase efficiency to compensate. Also the masts are shorter than normal, so the heel from the windage of a reefed tall mast will be less. Also the genoa furler looks like it may well be removable for you to improve windage further. I don't know what the combined effect of all this is, maybe Burkemeyer can tell you the theory and maybe you need to go for a sail.

The deep centreboard should help upwind.

I noticed it has a bow thruster yet has two engines. That seems unnecessary.

It has a stern anchor retracted with a built in windlass for Scandinavian sailing.

It's got an enormous 5500 lt fuel tankage. I can only imagine the intention is to use some of that normally for ballast and to pump it from side to side, so 2250 lt for normal cruising.

It even has bicycle storage.

I don't agree it is heavy at 38 tons. It's not a racy weight, but as a comparison it has the same DWL as a new Oyster 745 and that weights 52 tons. In relation to the sail area, the displacement is a little high, but I thought you didn't want an overpowered light 'Med' wind boat.

The two biggest weakness for me is the lack of dinghy garage and the visibility from the cockpit doesn't suit me well. Not terrible problems.
__________________

__________________
poiu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2016, 09:35   #453
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,750
Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Quote:
Originally Posted by poiu View Post
. . .It has two masts, but that allows backstay-less sails and so with a full roach squarish head. That should increase efficiency to compensate. Also they masts are shorter than normal, so the heel from the windage of a reefed tall mast will be less. Also the genoa furler looks like it may well be removable to improve windage. I don't know what the combined effect of all this is, maybe Burkemeyer can tell you the theory and maybe you need to go for a sail.
I rather like the rig. Split rigs have some huge advantages for this kind of sailing, and if you can get the masts far enough away from each other, the split rig disadvantages start to fade. The roachy mains are great. I'm sure those guys were looking at the Sundeer ketch rig; you've seen Jedi's boat?




Quote:
Originally Posted by poiu View Post
The deep centreboard should help upwind also I expect.
We'll see. I don't think the hull form is going to make for particularly good sailing, and there are a lot of flat sections. The bow is too fine for this duty. The centerboard will not work like a good bulb keel.

But the boat is primarily intended to be operated under power, I think, so if you think of it as a motor sailer, it will be worlds better than a Nauticat. I think it may be a perfectly decent compromise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by poiu View Post
Also noticed it has a bow thruster yet has two engines. That seems unnecessary.
Hah, for whom how (as the Russians say). I would take the bow AND stern thruster on a boat like that, probably. But the bow thruster on a twin screw vessel can do magic things. Big ships have them, despite twin screws. You would want every bit of control you could get, in harbor maneuvers, on such a vessel.



Quote:
Originally Posted by poiu View Post
It has a stern anchor retracted with a built in windlass for Scandinavian sailing.

It's got 5500 lt fuel tankage. I can only imagine the intention is to use some of that normally for ballast and to pump it from side to side. Way more tankage than you should ever need.
It's intended to be used primarily as a power boat, I think. It has 300 horsepower and with that displacement, I guess you could be using 20-30 liters/hour when trying to motor against wind and head seas. The tankage is to give you range even doing that. It makes sense to me.



Quote:
Originally Posted by poiu View Post
It even has bicycle storage.
With that much hull volume, it had better Did you see the underfloor area, with all the parts box storage? Very nice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by poiu View Post
I don't agree it is heavy at 38 tons. It's not a racy weight, but as a comparison it has the same DWL as a new Oyster 745 and that weights 52 tons. In relation to the sail area, the displacement is a little high, but I thought you didn't want an overpowered light 'Med' wind boat.
Well, it's pretty heavy. Remember the beam is only 5 meters (just like my Moody 54). I was thinking 22 - 25 tons for my hypothetical 62(ish) footer. The Sundeer 64 is 22 tons.

The sail area is good, I think. Remember it's a motor sailer with 300 horsepower, so you will not care about light wind performance. My own boat has 16.5 SA/D and this is perfectly adequate for these latitudes; I even reduced it by having a smaller blade jib made. The smaller rig and less sail area will be more efficient in strong conditions, and as you pointed out, the lower split rig will reduce heeling moment, adding even more efficiency. Good set up for high latitudes I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by poiu View Post
The two biggest weakness for me is the lack of dinghy garage and the visibility from the cockpit doesn't suit me well. Not terrible problems.
Agreed.
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-Ítre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2016, 10:16   #454
Registered User
 
Juho's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Finland
Boat: Nauticat 32
Posts: 716
Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
But the boat is primarily intended to be operated under power, I think, so if you think of it as a motor sailer, it will be worlds better than a Nauticat. I think it may be a perfectly decent compromise.
Where do you see the key differences between the Berckemeyer and the Nauticat? I didn't quite understand what was good and what was bad on each side.
__________________
Juho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2016, 10:31   #455
Registered User
 
funjohnson's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Currently Indiantown FL
Boat: 37' aluminum pilothouse "Elements"
Posts: 1,847
Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoppy View Post
More office cafeteria look than Ikea

How about this one off Dutch yacht. The alu hull was built professionally and then the owner built the rest

Attachment 125564
Do you have a link?.... it's an odd design, but I want to see more
__________________
MJSailing.com - Written Blog
Youtube MJ sailing - Vlog
funjohnson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2016, 10:34   #456
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,750
Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juho View Post
Where do you see the key differences between the Berckemeyer and the Nauticat? I didn't quite understand what was good and what was bad on each side.
The Berckemeyer is not a Swan, but looks to me to be quite a bit more sailing efficient than the Nauticat, which like most motor sailers has a longer fin keel and underbody built for motion comfort, not for foil efficiency.

That's the right direction for my use -- I want a good sailing boat. But the Berckemeyer has a lot of flat sections in the underbody and I reckon would be fairly uncomfortable, were it not for all that displacement.

I do like the way the Berckemeyer tries to push both sailing and motoring -- as if these capabilities are not contradictory. I like that very much. They've just gone a bit overboard towards motoring, compared to what I would have done.

Other boats which have this are the HR 64, with 300 hp and really big tanks, but intended as a sailboat with little compromise.

And the Sundeer, which is tilted more towards sailing, but with a large engine and good tanks.

The Sundeer, with long waterline, low and small rig, low windage, modest draft, narrow beam, small wetted surface, is probably my ideal for the sailing formula -- made to do effortless 200+ miles days. No extreme qualities anywhere -- made to make miles using very little sail power, which means very little heeling, little windage, little trouble. Totally opposite from these boats with wide beam, huge form stability and huge rigs, which need huge amounts of power to overcome all that drag and keep moving -- which is the worst thing in the world for long distance cruising, for me anyway.

The other thing about the Sundeer which is different from the Berckemeyer is that it is fairly light, which also makes it easier to move through the water, at the expense of some motion comfort, but that's a tradeoff I would make.
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-Ítre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2016, 12:24   #457
Registered User
 
Cadence's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: SC
Boat: None,build the one shown of glass, had many from 6' to 48'.
Posts: 6,059
Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terra Nova View Post
This looks like it's built for the job. Good looking boat.

__________________
Cadence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2016, 13:14   #458
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Caribbean
Boat: Oyster 66
Posts: 973
Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I rather like the rig. Split rigs have some huge advantages for this kind of sailing, and if you can get the masts far enough away from each other, the split rig disadvantages start to fade. The roachy mains are great. I'm sure those guys were looking at the Sundeer ketch rig; you've seen Jedi's boat?






We'll see. I don't think the hull form is going to make for particularly good sailing, and there are a lot of flat sections. The bow is too fine for this duty. The centerboard will not work like a good bulb keel.

But the boat is primarily intended to be operated under power, I think, so if you think of it as a motor sailer, it will be worlds better than a Nauticat. I think it may be a perfectly decent compromise.



Hah, for whom how (as the Russians say). I would take the bow AND stern thruster on a boat like that, probably. But the bow thruster on a twin screw vessel can do magic things. Big ships have them, despite twin screws. You would want every bit of control you could get, in harbor maneuvers, on such a vessel.





It's intended to be used primarily as a power boat, I think. It has 300 horsepower and with that displacement, I guess you could be using 20-30 liters/hour when trying to motor against wind and head seas. The tankage is to give you range even doing that. It makes sense to me.





With that much hull volume, it had better Did you see the underfloor area, with all the parts box storage? Very nice.



Well, it's pretty heavy. Remember the beam is only 5 meters (just like my Moody 54). I was thinking 22 - 25 tons for my hypothetical 62(ish) footer. The Sundeer 64 is 22 tons.

The sail area is good, I think. Remember it's a motor sailer with 300 horsepower, so you will not care about light wind performance. My own boat has 16.5 SA/D and this is perfectly adequate for these latitudes; I even reduced it by having a smaller blade jib made. The smaller rig and less sail area will be more efficient in strong conditions, and as you pointed out, the lower split rig will reduce heeling moment, adding even more efficiency. Good set up for high latitudes I think.



Agreed.
It looks to me like a good sailing boat rather than a motor-sailer. I don't think it was designed primarily as a motor boat despite the twin engines and enormous tankage. Apart from those tow features, everything else speaks of a cold weather high performance sailing boat. Large and good quality sails. Square head sails. Deep centreboard. Modest displacement. Narrow beam. Beam brought aft. Fine entry hull form.

I like the centreboard. I'm sure it won't work as well as a very deep racing bulb keel, but compared to a cruising keel, probably not a big difference. Certainly Oyster, who offer this sort of keel promote it as a close performing alternative. It has loads of advantages. Getting close to shore, drying out, resistance to grounding, absence of keel bolts to fail, reduced sailing at anchor, etc.

I saw the ton of storage under the salon, but I was a bit concerned by the lack of isolation of engine noise. I'm sure it would be better to seal the engine noise in, rather than allow the noise to travel throughout the boat under the floor.

As to fuel tankage. My boat is a little heavier and a good bit shorter. I can motor at about 7kts using 7 lt/hr. This boat being a longer and lighter will do a little more, say 8kts for the same fuel use and that will translate into maybe 9kt motorsailing pinching the wind with a VMG of maybe 6.5kt. Just an off the cuff guess of course, but that gives the boat something like a 5,000nm range just with the motors. More still if motoring in the calms. Way more than needed as there surely will be wind in the right direction a good bit of the time especially in the higher latitudes where it is designed for. This is why I presumed the tankage was serving double duty as moveable ballast.
__________________
poiu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2016, 13:45   #459
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: the Med
Boat: Nauta 54' by Scott Kaufman/S&S - 1989
Posts: 1,066
Images: 3
Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

The MOST PROMINENT feature on my Nauta54 !?

DOUBLE COCKPIT !

Adding some steering ability on the companionway (wireless AP) it is almost perfect...
__________________
TheThunderbird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2016, 13:50   #460
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,750
Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Quote:
Originally Posted by poiu View Post
As to fuel tankage. . . . Way more than needed as there surely will be wind in the right direction a good bit of the time especially in the higher latitudes where it is designed for. This is why I presumed the tankage was serving double duty as moveable ballast.

Or to fill up on dirt cheap, sweet Russian diesel fuel, to last you until next year, if you happen to call in to Vyborg
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-Ítre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2016, 13:52   #461
Senior Cruiser
 
Kenomac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Somewhere in the Adriatic Sea
Boat: Oyster 53 Cutter
Posts: 8,511
Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

I was unaware that Steve Jobs had designed a sailboat?

Berckemeyer Yacht Design | plans for modern and classic sailing yachts
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	image.jpeg
Views:	91
Size:	41.5 KB
ID:	125588  
__________________
Kenomac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2016, 14:02   #462
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,750
Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
I was unaware that Steve Jobs had designed a sailboat?

Berckemeyer Yacht Design | plans for modern and classic sailing yachts
Oh, my God. What a monstrosity. Even worse than a Hanse!
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-Ítre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2016, 14:05   #463
Registered User
 
neilpride's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: in the world
Boat: csy 44 tall rig.
Posts: 3,099
Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Doctor Frankenstein boat lol....
I bet you a Dollar that Polux is going to show up saying its a contemporary yacht!!!!
__________________
neilpride is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2016, 14:14   #464
Senior Cruiser
 
Kenomac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Somewhere in the Adriatic Sea
Boat: Oyster 53 Cutter
Posts: 8,511
Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

I'm sorry, but the first thought that came into my mind when I looked at the picture of the Berckemeyer... was Steven Job's boat "Venus," with sails.

I believe he was also into the fuctional beauty idea when he designed his duck.

But in all fairness, I've seen "Venus" in person several times and it doesn't look that bad in 3D. Kinda like the Russian fellow with the gigantic submarine "A," which looks quite striking when you sail past and see it in 3D. It's enormous.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	image.jpeg
Views:	81
Size:	159.9 KB
ID:	125589  
__________________
Kenomac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2016, 14:15   #465
Registered User
 
funjohnson's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Currently Indiantown FL
Boat: 37' aluminum pilothouse "Elements"
Posts: 1,847
Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
I was unaware that Steve Jobs had designed a sailboat?

Berckemeyer Yacht Design | plans for modern and classic sailing yachts

Have you seen Venus in person? It's actually pretty when stacked among all the other melted looking yachts. I hated the photos when it was launched, but seeing it come into harbor, it looked amazing.

Matt
__________________

__________________
MJSailing.com - Written Blog
Youtube MJ sailing - Vlog
funjohnson is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Boreal Sailboats Highwayman Monohull Sailboats 3 25-04-2016 12:43
Jedi's White Bread with Variations s/v Jedi Provisioning: Food & Drink 1 15-02-2011 20:25
gulf 32 pilothouse bearhill Monohull Sailboats 26 06-12-2008 08:58



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:55.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.