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Old 06-05-2016, 17:07   #31
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Uncivilized, the race boats I was thinking of with deck stepped masts are the likes of the new volvo65's, Comanche and a fair few of the Imoca boats. Not sure of all the reasons, but speculating here that multiple spreaders reduce the benefits of keel stepped masts by reducing the unsupported panel lengths. Also local strength is much easier to add into a CF mast, and the trend away from spinnaker poles means the lower panel isnt loaded by the pole the same way, the imoca boats often even step the booms on deck to take load out of this section.

Panope, thats very similar to the system I was thinking of regarding the bolted connection. Looks like a strong and clever solution. I had forgotten about that clever little detail. What sort of rigging wire did you use?
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Old 06-05-2016, 17:53   #32
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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Originally Posted by funjohnson View Post
Our boat was designed and built with the daggerboards like the Boreal's in 1983.

Here's a pic with the rudder off, but you get an idea of the way the French designed them way back when.

Attachment 123792

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Thats an awesome looking boat Matt. Looks good with the sandblasted topsides. I'd love to hear more about her. Cheers

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Old 06-05-2016, 18:40   #33
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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Panope, thats very similar to the system I was thinking of regarding the bolted connection. Looks like a strong and clever solution. I had forgotten about that clever little detail. What sort of rigging wire did you use?
Ben, I used galvanized wire with nicopress terminations. The shrouds are 1/2 inch - parceled and served 100%. When I built those shrouds I did not know about Dyneema and other Hi-mod rope.

Now, I fantasize about replacing the shrouds with 13mm Dux, served or sleeved for an uberstrong, lightweight, lifetime rig. I'd keep the industrial 1 inch galvanized turnbuckles as they 'look the part' and offer great abrasion resistance when I'm lying against crusty piers and such.

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Old 06-05-2016, 19:16   #34
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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Thats an awesome looking boat Matt. Looks good with the sandblasted topsides. I'd love to hear more about her. Cheers

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Thanks. You should have seen when she was painted with really old Awlgrip. Stripped it all with aircraft stripper, chisel and a random orbital. Still needs the final polish, but that will be done right before launch.

As you can see, she has a lot of the characteristics of the Boreal.... centerboard with a wide keel stub vs the totally flat bottom like Ovnis, twin daggerboards, deck salon, etc... all in a 33 year old body


We're still thinking of doing a Boreal type hard dodger, but I'm afraid of the wedding cake look.

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Old 06-05-2016, 20:49   #35
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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We're still thinking of doing a Boreal type hard dodger, but I'm afraid of the wedding cake look.
Good looking boat. I reckon a dodger would look on her and you know looks on a cruising boat must come second to comfort. I have to say that as I am the proud owner of a very functional yet ugly dodger
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Old 06-05-2016, 22:26   #36
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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On the End Fixity "question", you can believe a certified expert on it, or not at your own peril. Well yours, & anyone within the fall radius of your spar. ....

..... That there's not a substitute for end fixity.

If I'm wrong, someone please show me the proof.
You are absolutely right

Thou there are few advantages with deck stepped mast. The most important being it's possible to trim the sails with mast bending which is the point to have "poorly" supported mast in racers. But this is cruiserforum so

BR Teddy
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Old 06-05-2016, 22:52   #37
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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You are absolutely right

Thou there are few advantages with deck stepped mast. The most important being it's possible to trim the sails with mast bending which is the point to have "poorly" supported mast in racers. But this is cruiserforum so

BR Teddy
I see no reason that a keel stepped mast can't be bent... and in fact have done so on my own boats.

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Old 07-05-2016, 00:28   #38
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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You are absolutely right

Thou there are few advantages with deck stepped mast. The most important being it's possible to trim the sails with mast bending which is the point to have "poorly" supported mast in racers. But this is cruiserforum so

BR Teddy
I hold on to the very contrary, and have written about it here above.

If you have any proof of the contrary, please show.

Slack can be gotten quite easily, working on the hydraulics on rigging, if you are familiar.... Bending to stern was a practice on heavy canvas sails, but isn't it another chapter!?

What are we missing!? Or are use confused with rotating masts (another chapter, again...)
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Old 07-05-2016, 00:31   #39
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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You are absolutely right

Thou there are few advantages with deck stepped mast. The most important being it's possible to trim the sails with mast bending which is the point to have "poorly" supported mast in racers. But this is cruiserforum so

BR Teddy
Every racing boat I've ever been on has had a bendable spar, the keel stepped ones more than deck stepped. Masthead & fractional.

I'm thinking that you have your figuring bass ackwards on this. Keel stepped spars tend to be more flexible, & bendable, vs. deck stepped ones. As their section modulus is lower/smaller for a given boat, than were they to have a deck stepped spar.
Also, with a keel stepped mast, you can start out with a lot more prebend, via the moveable butt & adjustable deck chocks. Which makes them Much more tunable.

For example, on my 2-Tonner, with her 58' masthead rig, I'd routinely bend it 18", sometimes closer to 2', needs be. And yet it wasn't a fragile spar by any means. Just had a lot of tuning controls. And she was keel stepped.
Most racer's from the mid/late 70's - early 90's were setup that way.

PS: I know that it's often associated with racing, but being able to depower the main via mast bend is a big perk. As is being able to tune the headstay, when the beeze pipes up.
Dialing out the sag, reduces heel, increases pointing, & controllablity/power. Besides, the Dashew's LUV it, & most call them cruisers.
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Old 07-05-2016, 00:32   #40
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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I see no reason that a keel stepped mast can't be bent... and in fact have done so on my own boats.

Jim
Everything bends of course. With fractional rig keel stepping resists the bending and can cause S bending of the luff if tensioned too much.

BR Teddy
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Old 07-05-2016, 00:35   #41
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Quote:
Originally Posted by funjohnson View Post
Thanks. You should have seen when she was painted with really old Awlgrip. Stripped it all with aircraft stripper, chisel and a random orbital. Still needs the final polish, but that will be done right before launch.

As you can see, she has a lot of the characteristics of the Boreal.... centerboard with a wide keel stub vs the totally flat bottom like Ovnis, twin daggerboards, deck salon, etc... all in a 33 year old body


We're still thinking of doing a Boreal type hard dodger, but I'm afraid of the wedding cake look.

Attachment 123806

Matt
do not be afraid!

There is plenty of choice on new trendy colors...

Chocolate death
Vanilla fudge (matt, or shunt)
Hazel sundae
Fluo pink teenager wedding cake
Wild bean green
Just Cavalli zebra
SWAT camouflage
Versace jungle... (all colors internet, none excluded)
Mount Blanc (soft top mandatory)

All (almost)
In the perfect American tradition of cake-making labelling
:-) :-):-)
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Old 07-05-2016, 01:24   #42
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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Uncivilized, the race boats I was thinking of with deck stepped masts are the likes of the new volvo65's, Comanche and a fair few of the Imoca boats.
It's a moderately educated guess. But basically, on many/most boats with canting keels, there's no "traditional" (or grid) keel to step the butt of the tube on.
So that overall, for the boat's structure to be able to handle the monsterous loads of those canting beasts, & their rams, etc. Plus deal with spar loadings. The overall package (complete boat), is lighter, & still has a higher RM, by using a deck stepped rig.

Most of the canting keelers are still 'experimental', very expensive, works in progress. Even with the data bases which they have for the loads on the keel components now. And it's not uncommon for tuneups/rebuilds of those "fragile", pricey systems to happen. Including the intenal "skeleton" of the boat, to which the hardware's mounted & supported by.

Such things are probably the biggest reason why the VOR moved away from box rule boats, sometimes with several boats per team, to the One Designs.
The costs for a campaign were just getting astronomical.

Not sure of all the reasons, but speculating here that multiple spreaders reduce the benefits of keel stepped masts by reducing the unsupported panel lengths.
When you're figuring scantlings for a spar, more spreaders do help you reduce the tube size (section modulus) required. But that reduction due to shorter panel lengths applies pretty much evenly to both deck & keel stepped rigs.
Or so say the tech. ref's that I have.

Also local strength is much easier to add into a CF mast, and the trend away from spinnaker poles means the lower panel isnt loaded by the pole the same way, the imoca boats often even step the booms on deck to take load out of this section.
Yeah, the shift in boom mouns happened ages back, for exactly the reasons you describe. And it is easier to fine tune a CF's mast strength wise, via tweaking laminate spec's in various areas.

Panope, thats very similar to the system I was thinking of regarding the bolted connection. Looks like a strong and clever solution. I had forgotten about that clever little detail. What sort of rigging wire did you use?
BTW, thanks for the clarification of specifics on this.
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Old 07-05-2016, 03:01   #43
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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I can't figure out anything more impracticable than daggers, on a cruising monohull.

2nd comes a centerboard ballast. I have seen a 24m ship spending 20k to fix its one.

Cantilever got blocked. How would you call it!? A Bermuda tribute!?
During my teens I spend several summers in Brittany sailing with the French sailing school "Les Glenans". The first summer was on a plywood Herbulot design with two centreboards, parallel to each other (one under each settee). The boat also had no engine, no electricity, no electronic navigation. And no winches... We would beach it about every second day.
In Brittany beaching a boat is very common. There are boats that dry out twice a day on their moorings. So it's no surprise that robust centreboarders are popular in that part of the world.
And the French take these boats everywhere, and in the process do prove that the concept works, and is definitely suitable for extended cruising.
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Old 07-05-2016, 04:52   #44
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

A doghouse would be nice.
- one step from the cockpit and all the winches and lines, no long ladders down
- protection from rain, wind and cold

There are some potential problems and weaknesses too.
- if you have a raised saloon and a doghouse on top of that, upwind windage is no more minimal
- hard dodger and doghouse can not be lowered to reduce windage
- some risk of getting water into the boat because of lacking washboard style elements
- in a full size pilothouse all passengers could see out and enjoy the view

A relatively flat pilothouse or doghouse would be a good approach to fighting the upwind windage problem. Upwind windage does not increase much if the "house" is long. Sideways a doghouse (with no raised saloon) would have less windage.

I have seen some boats where the steering/navigation station is inside a large pilothouse or a raised roof saloon but right next to the cockpit door / companionway. You can see forward through the pilothouse front window. This approach would be nice if visibility does not suffer too much.
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Old 07-05-2016, 12:24   #45
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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There are some potential problems and weaknesses too.
- if you have a raised saloon and a doghouse on top of that, upwind windage is no more minimal
- hard dodger and doghouse can not be lowered to reduce windage
.
A high latitude boat must had a hard dodger or otherwise protected steering and watch-keeping position period.

This fold down dodger to reduce windage mantra is I'm afraid some leftover from days gone by. It must be forgotten about right now!

When it is cold and blowing the watchkeeper must be in shelter to be effective and a fold down dodger will have either blown away, been ripped off by the sea (even if it is folded down) or heaven forbid actually folded down! It is then no use when it needs to be of most use.

Sure there is windage penalty but so is there a windage penalty for the roller furling that you can't take down, and the radar arch and the solar panels and the all the other crap that is on a modern cruising boat. No the dodger must stay it must be strong enough to withstand the sea and the wind.

Others were quoting the move to dodgers in the modern race boats. It is now accepted, and long known, that the better protected the crew are the more rested, fitter and alert they are. That does not only apply to race crews.

A well designed hard dodger need not be a terrible penalty in the tropics either. Mine was designed with quite steep sides to reduce the amount of sun which comes through (at high sun elevations) and provides good shade. We do not feel that it turns the cockpit into an oven although maybe in the future I'll put opening portlights in the front to allow more airflow when at anchor. You never sail directly upwind so those are not needed for airflow at sea.

Mine is only a dodger. It does not have a watertight door, simply a roll down and zip cover which is enough to keep the wind and rain off if downwind. However the next one will have a watertight door.
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