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Old 23-05-2016, 14:42   #286
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post

As to rudders -- another hard trade-off, but after reflection, full skeg rudders are not for me.
Maybe a half skeg rudder whose lower end is designed to break when the rudder hits something heavy. Maybe it is possible to do that also without any skeg at all.

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post

I love the Boreal approach, but after reflection I think I am going more to the SWL approach and create a space where the crew can live at anchor or in port in bad weather as well as good, and watch the world go by.
If you will have a large pilothouse, should the steering position be close to the windscreen (as in many pilothouses) or close to the watertight door (doghouse style)? Maybe you can have a wet area next to the door, if you plan to run in and out trimming the sails. For a more peaceful sailing style, no special wet area needed.

If you don't have a fixed steering wheel inside, but only buttons, maybe you could steer the boat remotely from any location within the pilothouse. Or maybe that's not needed. According to my experience it is quite ok to have a dinner around the pilothouse table, and if you feel the need, stretch your arm and push the autopilot buttons .

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Dashew's Sundeers are probably closest in hull form to what I have in mind -- the accommodation of a 45 footer in a 65 foot boat with the beam of a 45 footer but with a 65 foot waterline -- bravo.
I like that approach. It may be actually a quite low-cost approach to weld few feet of extra aluminium plates at both ends of the boat. And you will get a nice garage for the (light) dinghy, lots of extra storage space for a long passage, lots of extra LWL, and even an extra ad-hoc bedroom for the tired guests .

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post

The low, small, and very low windage rig will make it easier to get the boat upwind and make the boat easier to sail, especially in bad weather and long passages. That's the type of "sailing efficiency" I'm looking for -- and the holy grail here is low windage.
My thinking is that if you have a hull of certain size and weight, and you want to optimize upwind capability, then you could count the ideal size of the keel weight and rig size. Going too small and light might mean losing efficiency. I'm not a boat designer though, so maybe someone else will tell what is the best balance. I might optimize the rig size so that it is not too big for a hurricane. (Another rule that I need to respect is not to hit my mast on the low bridges that surround my home base .)

There was also the idea of hawing extra water ballast. A modern solution from the racing world, towards the same goal, would be to have a canting keel. But maybe that is not for cruisers.
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Old 23-05-2016, 14:56   #287
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
A few of his latest posts bordered on describing a MacGregor 65.
Except for the part where the bow torques 4 feet each direction in a seaway. Roger did mod his own into a ketch rig though....
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Old 23-05-2016, 15:10   #288
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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Originally Posted by reed1v View Post
Sir Francis bemoaned the tenderness of GM4 and really did not like the way the boat sailed, but sailed it anyways. It was not only tender, but quick to do so; which peeved him to no end. But it was fast and seaworthy. Famous picture of him rounding the Horn with just a jib and some rather large seas escorting him.
It seemed a case of the designer overriding the owner's desires. Not uncommon when commissioning a new yacht.
Some years ago I read Illingworth's autobiography... a very interesting book indeed. In it he devoted an entire chapter to Gypsy Moth and Sir Francis. In contrast to your statement, Illingworth said that Chichester overrode many of his design features, and that these changes were the cause of many of the perceived faults in the boat. It has been quite a long time since I read this, and the details have escaped my memory, but the overall picture was quite the opposite to what you suggest.

And FWIW, an Australian friend did a passage on GM4 after she was relaunched. Said it was a very uncomfortable and demanding boat to sail at sea, and was left with the feeling that Chichester was one tough old bird to have put up with it!

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Old 23-05-2016, 15:13   #289
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
---
Yes, the Boreal is interesting to me because of the doghouse/pilothouse approach, and the way it is constructed. It has a few features which are not good for me, but the hull form is NOT a wedgie -- it has a slightly raked stem, flared topsides, strongly flared topsides aft, with the waterline strongly tapered aft -- so much closer to my present boat, than to a Hanse, for example...
Moody 54:



Boreal 47:




Hanse 575:

Hanse 415:
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Old 23-05-2016, 15:40   #290
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Old style boats are a real PIA to sail on. Read more in Peyron's words on Transat web. He is in the Pen Duick right now... Poor guy!

Loïck Peyron’s tribute to Tabarly is cut short | News | The Transat bakerly

b.
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Old 23-05-2016, 18:52   #291
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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Hum, I have changed all my **** tubes. They became permeable with time (not much time) and start letting the odor pass. I believe that solution would only increase the problem unless some kind of light metal tubes were used (it was explained to me by an expert that they are the only ones that last in what regards keeping the smell out.

But regarding water ballast it really only makes sense on a beamy boat were the effect is maximized. On a narrow boat they will have a much more limited effect and probably would not deserve the effort.
Paulo

Dockhead said grey water - that is sink and shower outlets, not head outlets. Head outlets are black water.
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Old 23-05-2016, 20:11   #292
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Id still be concerned with grey water if it is an integral aluminium tank. I guess it might be ok with very good cleaning and occasional use. Aluminium is prone to poultice corrosion if it sits wet with contaminants.

If you went separate plastic tanks it would be fine. I think there could be some benefit in having a bank of different tanks, all out near the beam with crossovers so they can be used as ballast. Fuel, FW and grey water and even black water could be used like this. It would end up more complex, with more valves to open unfortunately, but you arent relying on water ballast, just using it for longer trips for more power and comfort. The plastic black and grey tanks can be topped up with salt water as needed.

In my experience even a little weight to windward helps a lot in a seaway.

I also worry about FW in an alloy tank, as the clorine is pretty hard on even marine aluminium. Ideally run all the water through a carbon filter first.
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Old 23-05-2016, 23:17   #293
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
That is a lot of generalization...

Note that the 114AVS of the Sabre is not really bad. Lot's of old boats have much lower AVS (not all), before RCD have been increasing standards.
You are right, a lot of generalization. The stability curves of older vessels were based on hull volume only without any superstructure so you can't compare them to more recent ones.
What comes to "excellence" of high AVS you keep insisting something around 130deg being so which is just a tad more than the minimum of 120deg.

-120 to130 poor
-130 to140 adequate
-140 to150 good
-150 -> excellent

BR Teddy
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Old 24-05-2016, 04:23   #294
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Moody 54:



Boreal 47:




Hanse 575:

Hanse 415:
Yes, as I said -- the Boreal has slightly raked bow like the Moody, and flared topsides, transom narrower than max beam, and very narrow waterline aft.

Obviously it is not quite like the Moody inasmuch as it has chines and a totally different keel arrangement, but the distribution of buoyancy and behavior of that hull will be more like that of the Moody than something like the Hanse, with it's block-like vertical topsides, plumb bow, and great width at the waterline.
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Old 24-05-2016, 04:54   #295
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
I hope not. That is an ugly boat with an outdated hull (16 years old). They updated already the design on the 48 but the 55 is just a MKII



. . .

Discoveries are "ugly boats"? I think Paolo is being provocative here

If the hull is "outdated", then strange that Ron Holland, one of the world's great designers, continues to design new boats with exactly the same hull form.

The new Discovery 58:

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The hull form is exactly the same as the "outdated and ugly" Moody 54 (designed by Bill Dixon), also the brand new Oyster 545 and 475 (designed by Ron Holland, and the latest Hallberg Rassies, designed by German Frers.

For an evolutionary dead end, this direction in hull form design seems to have a lot of life left in it, and that's a lot of great designers to be stuck in the past with "obsolete" designs.

In fact current fashions in hull form in France and Germany do not point the way to the future. They are just a different set of compromises, and a different fashion, driven in many cases also, as several people have mentioned, cheapness and hull volume.
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Old 24-05-2016, 05:17   #296
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Why don't you simply buy a Discovery 55, which is what you've been describing all along?
Hi Ken:

Discoveries are local boats -- made in Southampton. I haven't sailed one, but I've crawled all over a couple.

They are nice boats -- beautifully made, perhaps the highest quality production boats I've ever seen.

But aside from the raised nav table, they don't fulfill any of the things which I want to change, by changing boats. The Discovery 55 (which Paolo calls "ugly and outdated") is in fact an almost identical boat to what I already have, same hull form exactly, almost exactly the same layout except for the levels in the salon, etc.

Some things I like and don't like about Discoveries:

1. I don't like the rig with that Solent stay and whole extra sail on a furler, increasing windage, and no staysail. The combination of a blade and a light wind sail is great functionally, but I would never leave it all up. And no way could I live without a staysail.

2. The raised nav table is great but doesn't replace a proper pilothouse. Also, the salon of the Discovery is broken up by levels so that the table and seating is raised high above everything else. So it's like climbing between different "pods" -- the salon is not any kind of room or space. Don't like it.

3. The Discovery has a wonderful engine room, however -- almost walk in. And beautifully arranged.

4. Beautiful craftsmanship everywhere you look. I copied the stanchion gate design and had such gates made for my own boat, by the way.


But the Discovery has none of what I need for getting further off the beaten track:

1. Different hull form -- narrower and longer -- easily driven.

2. Watertight compartments.

3. Long, empty ends with dinghy garage.

4. Chain storage away from the bow.

5. Proper pilothouse.

6. Metal construction.


* * *

Concerning the MacGregor 65 -- YES. This is a good demonstration of what a long and narrowish hull can do. The utter crap quality and hideous aesthetics are beside the point -- the hull form worked.

I don't know if Dashew ever admitted it or not, but I will bet dollars to doughnuts that the Mac 65 was an inspiration for his Sundeers.

Many boat designs are optimized to squeeze every bit of volume into the shortest possible hull. That reflects berthing costs, something very important for people who keep their boats in marinas and pay for length, and who mostly cruise from marina to marina.


It's a different kind of cruiser, who keeps his boat on a mooring like I do, or just constantly moves. Who spends much time at anchor and is not in marinas all the time. For such people, and I'm included, minimizing LOA is just not a primary goal. When I bought my present boat, I was trying to stay below 50 feet, and the boat I thought I wanted was an Oyster 485. I bought my present boat DESPITE, as I thought then, the size, which I thought was excessive.

Boy, how different that looks today! After seven years with this boat, I want one about 10 feet longer. Not wider, and not more accommodation space -- but longer, for the sake of waterline length, seaworthiness, distribution of volumes in the boat, etc.


Here is the new Hallberg Rassy 64:

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Hot off the pen of German Frers and introduced last year. I guess Frers didn't get Paolo's memo that such hull forms are "ugly and outdated"

I really like this boat for a few reasons. It has the dinghy garage, a really good solution which makes the dinghy garage a super lazarette. Dinghy garages under aft cockpits works far worse than this.

Second, this boat -- which is unusual in some ways despite the "outdated" hull form -- is rather narrow for her length -- just 30cm wider than my boat.

Third, the boat has a huge engine -- 300 horsepower -- with very large tanks, so is effectively a motor sailer, although the sailing performance should be excellent. This is very good for the long distance, remote areas cruiser.

Has a fantastic engine room and quite a lot of technical/storage space, even if it doesn't go as far in that direction as my fantasy boat does.

I tried hard to find a production boat I could live with, since that would be so much simpler, faster, and cheaper, and the HR 64 was the last boat standing (actually one of two, with the Chris White Atlantic 57 cat). If it only had a pilothouse, I might have been willing to live with some of the other compromises, like lack of metal construction, questionable HR quality, etc. A hard dodger with a curtain or door? Still not the same thing. So in the end this too was rejected.
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Old 24-05-2016, 10:36   #297
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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I tried hard to find a production boat I could live with, since that would be so much simpler, faster, and cheaper, and the HR 64 was the last boat standing (actually one of two, with the Chris White Atlantic 57 cat). If it only had a pilothouse, I might have been willing to live with some of the other compromises, like lack of metal construction, questionable HR quality, etc. A hard dodger with a curtain or door? Still not the same thing. So in the end this too was rejected.
Ask Nauticat to expand their range to 64 feet.
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Old 24-05-2016, 13:52   #298
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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....
Few of the boats shown in Polux's posts in this thread have anything to do with normal cruising boats. They are like the Lamborghinis, F1 cars, and fantasy concept hot rods taped to a teenage boy's bedroom wall.
I guess your idea of normality is linked with outdated design. I have posted here about all types of contemporary boats. I have been very carefull not even to post cruiser racers, meaning the ones that are more used to race than to cruise and you talk about fantasy concepts and F1 as reference to those designs The only thing in common between them is that they are not cruiser racers and they are contemporary designs.

It seems you associate contemporary design with F1 and fantasy concepts but those boats are not racing boats and are not fantasy since they are bought by many cruisers.

So, I took a lot of time to see all the boats I have posted on this thread and I will say all brands and the type of program they are designed to fulfill, according to the designers and the sailors that buy them:

Boreal 47-Voyage boat, Hanse 415- main market mass production boat, Hanse 575-main market mass production boat, Hanse 34-main market mass production boat, Pogo 12.50-fast voyage boat, JPK 38-fast voyage boat, Discovery 48, medium weight main market boat, Gunfleet 58, medium weight voyage boat, Luffe 4004-performance cruiser, RM 1600-fast voyage boat, Pogo 50-fast voyage boat, Revolution 29-small aluminium voyage boat, Garcia 52-Voyage boat, OVNI 52-voyage boat, Cigale 16-fast voyage boat, Adventure 55-Fast voyage boat, Salona 60-performance cruiser, X6- fast voyage boat, Solaris 58-performance cruiser, Italia Yacht 15.99-main market cruiser, Euphoria 54-main market cruiser, Advanced 60- main market cruiser, Halberg Rassy 44-main market cruiser, Pogo 36-small fast voyage boat, Allures 52-Voyage boat, Nordship 430DS-voyage boat, CR 440-Deck saloon, CR 480- Deck Saloon, Boreal 52-Voyage boat.

I have posted only racing boats to show how the hull evolution towards a better sailing performance reflects itself later in cruising boats, bettering their sail performance.

I don't understand how you can associate the cruising boats I have posted (all above) to F1 or fantasy concepts, posters on a wall of a teenager.
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Old 24-05-2016, 14:08   #299
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post

....
Few of the boats shown in Polux's posts in this thread have anything to do with normal cruising boats. They are like the Lamborghinis, F1 cars, and fantasy concept hot rods taped to a teenage boy's bedroom wall.

Ditto
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Old 24-05-2016, 14:26   #300
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

The Pogo 12,5 is just a windsurf board downwind , far from a cruising boat concept, unless you are 20 years old and want the sporty ride 24/7/365
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