Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 18-05-2016, 05:21   #211
Registered User
 
Snowpetrel's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Hobart
Boat: Alloy Peterson 40
Posts: 3,071
Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
The fastest monohull is the Comanche and id designed with a big beam and all the beam brought back because... (snip)
Comanche was soundly beaten by the very narrow (and very old) Wild Oats in the Sydney Hobart Race.
__________________

__________________
My Ramblings
Snowpetrel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-05-2016, 09:08   #212
Registered User
 
malbert73's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2008
Boat: Tartan 40
Posts: 1,032
Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Yes, narrower beam boats often can do better with light or moderate air and non surfing conditions due to reduced wetted surface and more easily driven hull form.

Broad brush strokes of course... But pizza wedge hulls really shine in race boats with high ballast ratios or moveable ballast, and powered up conditions. I routinely sail by bigger beamier big sterner "modern" boats in light air on Chesapeake. I assume downwind in big air they will be faster. They certainly are faster under power which suggests the benefit of broad stern sections at/above hull speed


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________

__________________
malbert73 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-05-2016, 13:17   #213
Registered User
 
malbert73's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2008
Boat: Tartan 40
Posts: 1,032
Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

And to further discussion, boats with finite, limited horsepower like rowing shells, canoes and kayaks still are long and narrow hulls.
Long and narrow is still the most easily driven hull form, which translates into non- planing non heavy air sailboat design.

Just a thought for those on this forum that insist that fat broad sterned hulls are somehow superior in every way. In fact if recent evolution in hull shape in race boats somehow hindered interior space on cruising boats rather than opposite, I doubt we'd see this evolution...


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________
malbert73 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-05-2016, 14:50   #214
Registered User
 
Cadence's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: SC
Boat: None,build the one shown of glass, had many from 6' to 48'.
Posts: 6,059
Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Does any of this have anything to do with the average Joe and his boat?
__________________
Cadence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-05-2016, 15:55   #215
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,765
Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I'm not going to google, download, and post all the different images because everyone can easily find the images themselves.

If you look at the whole current product lines of Oyster, HR, Contest, Discovery, Hylas, and any other builder of higher end, non mass produced cruising boats, with only a few exceptions, the hull form is the same, and in fact is exactly the same as my boat, although mine was designed way back in 2000 -- moderate rake in the bow, moderately tapered aft sections, reverse counter transom quite a bit narrower than maximum beam, flared topsides, and a moderate aspect ratio, wide-based bulb keel. You see no torpedo keels, no plumb bows, no tumblehome or flat sides, no full width transom, no flat aft section.
...
You have to sharpen your eyes. Regarding your boat, 16 years of development of yacht design is not the same as 30, but if you cannot find differences regarding new designs and the design of your boat is only because you are not looking well even if the design of your boat was very contemporary regarding 2000.

Your boat, the 2000 Moody 54:





You can compare it with the Garcia 52:


OVNI 52:


Boreal 52:


Cigale 16:


Adventure 55:


Salona 60:




X6:


Solaris 58:



Italia yachts 15.98:


Euphoria 54:


Advanced 60:




I could go on and posting many contemporary 50/60 ft yachts sharing common design characteristics (as well as some differences) than will show clearly the differences to your hull regarding a contemporary design. I will not point out those differences since they would be obvious to you or everybody that decides to make a fair comparison but I would say: look at bows, transoms and the place where max beam is.

Yes you can find some brands, mostly conservative ones, that still had not modernised their hulls, some having old designed hulls (MKII) that were not designed much after the one of your boat. But on brands like HR or Oyster the last designs ( last 2 years) clearly show that they also have decided to modernise their designs bringing them to the state of the art.
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-05-2016, 16:31   #216
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,765
Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowpetrel View Post
Comanche was soundly beaten by the very narrow (and very old) Wild Oats in the Sydney Hobart Race.
Not on the last one where Wild Oates was way behind till it blew its main sail. Comanche is the one that has the 24 hour speed record too. Besides Wild Oates has been continuously modified, including new bow, new transom and hull upgrade design not to mention the introduction of state of the art systems like DSS.

Not saying that Comanche is faster on all sail conditions but certainly on most of them but that was not the point. The point was that someone was saying that modern boats have only more beam (and the beam brought aft that equates big transoms) only because cruisers want more living space at cost of performance and sailability. Clearly not the case in what regards performance.
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-05-2016, 19:19   #217
Registered User
 
malbert73's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2008
Boat: Tartan 40
Posts: 1,032
Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Yawn. Same posts over and over with pictures of beamy boats in strong wind. Show me a picture of a beamy cruising boat sailing well in light air.

Also, if you recall, winged keels were considered state of the art after the famous Americas cup 20 years ago. Every cruising boat suddenly had to have them as well as they were the hot thing.

Wonder where all the wing keels are now? Now only as a shoal draft compromise.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________
malbert73 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-05-2016, 19:44   #218
Registered User
 
Snowpetrel's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Hobart
Boat: Alloy Peterson 40
Posts: 3,071
Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Not on the last one where Wild Oates was way behind till it blew its main sail. Comanche is the one that has the 24 hour speed record too. Besides Wild Oates has been continuously modified, including new bow, new transom and hull upgrade design not to mention the introduction of state of the art systems like DSS.

Not saying that Comanche is faster on all sail conditions but certainly on most of them but that was not the point. The point was that someone was saying that modern boats have only more beam (and the beam brought aft that equates big transoms) only because cruisers want more living space at cost of performance and sailability. Clearly not the case in what regards performance.
True, though we will not know until next time the two boats meet which one is faster. Wild Oats seems significantly faster in light winds. I was pointing out in an oblique way that beam doesnt always equal allround speed. These wide boats would be much faster if some of that material added to the beam was used to make the boat slightly longer. Except that once again racing rules (in this case the 100 foot supermaxi limit and in the Imoca the box rules and 10 deg movable ballast limit) come into play and drive these distorted, overly wide boats.

I am not saying these trends are bad, or slow, or unseaworthy. Just that one has to look at all the factors, and often the trends in racing boats don't always apply to cruising boats, othertimes there is a synergy but for different reasons, ie wide stern equals space.
__________________
My Ramblings
Snowpetrel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-05-2016, 20:33   #219
Do… or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Jedi is our first pilothouse boat and I must admit it is one of the most awesome features that I never expected to have such an impact on life aboard. I can't imagine doing without it; it is a must have.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-05-2016, 00:19   #220
Registered User
 
Snowpetrel's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Hobart
Boat: Alloy Peterson 40
Posts: 3,071
Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

She looks lovely Jedi, I like the way you put the hardtop over the pilothouse with the solar panels on it. At least the windage is further forward and it provides some useful cockpit shelter. The ketch rig really reduces the size of your headsail. I bet its smaller than a lot of 45 footers. Cheers

Sent from my SM-G930F using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
My Ramblings
Snowpetrel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-05-2016, 10:01   #221
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,750
Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
You have to sharpen your eyes. Regarding your boat, 16 years of development of yacht design is not the same as 30, but if you cannot find differences regarding new designs and the design of your boat is only because you are not looking well even if the design of your boat was very contemporary regarding 2000.

Your boat, the 2000 Moody 54:



You can compare it with the Garcia 52:

OVNI 52:

Boreal 52:

Cigale 16:

Adventure 55:

Salona 60:

I could go on and posting many contemporary 50/60 ft yachts sharing common design characteristics (as well as some differences) than will show clearly the differences to your hull regarding a contemporary design. I will not point out those differences since they would be obvious to you or everybody that decides to make a fair comparison but I would say: look at bows, transoms and the place where max beam is.

Yes you can find some brands, mostly conservative ones, that still had not modernised their hulls, some having old designed hulls (MKII) that were not designed much after the one of your boat. But on brands like HR or Oyster the last designs ( last 2 years) clearly show that they also have decided to modernise their designs bringing them to the state of the art.

No one disputed that such designs exist. What was disputed was that there is only one "state of the art" and only one direction, only one "modern" and "not modern" hull form, and you have not made a case that there is. Nor could you make such a case, because this idea is false. One type of hull form does not suit all uses, and there are different directions in hull form evolution. Why even among the boats you posted, there are very different types of hull form, and not a unified "modern" movement.


The "Wedgie", or as someone on here called it, the "Pizza Wedge" hull form, is only one design direction, and is still used by a minority of yards for a minority of world boat production. It is not clear that this type of design will even increase -- it could well be just a passing fashion, as many professional boat designers say. The Wedgie has absolutely not made other hull forms obsolete, and is unlikely to do so. It has a few advantages but also a few significant disadvantages.

The very last Oyster designs, at least among there regular prodution boats -- the 475 and 545 -- introduced just last year, have exactly the same hull form as the Moody 54, except that they have full skeg rudders. Same can be said for the latest Hallberg Rassy designs. I could go on. That is not to say that this hull form is perfect or fabulous or anything like that -- every hull design has disadvantages. But it is absolutely not obsolete.

Fashion and progress are NOT the same thing and do not always correspond.
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-ętre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-05-2016, 10:17   #222
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Switzerland
Boat: So many boats to choose from. Would prefer something that is not an AWB, and that is beachable...
Posts: 1,242
Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowpetrel View Post
I said the only length that really matters for a cruising boat is the length the marina and slipyard charges for. and normally they use LOA, including bowsprits and the like.
Which is why one designer came up with this:

__________________
K_V_B is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 19-05-2016, 11:23   #223
Registered User
 
Panope's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Washington State
Boat: Colvin, Saugeen Witch (Aluminum), 34'
Posts: 1,593
Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
Which is why one designer came up with this:
Also, this is a big reason why I re-rigged Panope from schooner to sloop. The boat went from 43' LOA to 35'.

Steve
Panope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-05-2016, 11:31   #224
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,105
Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Off course, that applies to the racing boats too, that need a lot of space for the beavers

The fastest monohull is the Comanche and id designed with a big beam and all the beam brought back because beavers need more and more interior space
Yes, made at home here in Maine. Hodgdon Yachts. Been around about 200 years in the same family.
__________________
reed1v is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-05-2016, 13:20   #225
Registered User
 
TeddyDiver's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arctic Ocean
Boat: Under construction 35' ketch
Posts: 1,828
Images: 2
Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

It's maybe just me but I missed the pilothouse on that Comanche ik
__________________

__________________
TeddyDiver is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Boreal Sailboats Highwayman Monohull Sailboats 3 25-04-2016 12:43
Jedi's White Bread with Variations s/v Jedi Provisioning: Food & Drink 1 15-02-2011 20:25
gulf 32 pilothouse bearhill Monohull Sailboats 26 06-12-2008 08:58



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:06.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.