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Old 17-12-2014, 13:09   #16
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Re: Pilothouse Envy

Here is a link to Buizen Yachts, for those who might want to see the 48, 52, or the drawings for the 60.

Buizen Yachts - Pilot House Yachts – The Finest Blue Water Cruising Yachts In The World. Handcrafted and custom made yachts, Sydney Australia.

I will post a few more photos as the interior of the 48 (two first photos) and of the 52 model looks very different (more "euro contemporary") from the 48. The last image is the drawing for the 60.
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Old 17-12-2014, 13:33   #17
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Re: Pilothouse Envy

On the cheap these Islander 37PH were kinda cool. Almost bought one. I liked the raised salon with the inside steering option...
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Old 17-12-2014, 13:47   #18
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Re: Pilothouse Envy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I agree with you!

I sail for pleasure, not for economy! It's not a cheap sport, either!

My new set of carbon laminate sails cost more than my first house did!

On the other hand, I have all that noise... and my range is slightly limited...



Ah, well, compromises, compromises.



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Old 17-12-2014, 15:22   #19
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Re: Pilothouse Envy

G'Day DH,

There have been times when the pilothouse would have seemed like heaven, that's for sure! So far, we haven't succumbed to the desire for comfort, but it is beckoning on the horizon. Getting old is the pits...

But back to the concept of motoring being less expensive than sailing... In the thread on "cost of cruising" thread (I think), someone did a good job of breaking out the actual costs of running the engine, and it was a lot more than just the cost of fuel... a LOT more! Adding in the costs of oil, filters, impellers, coolants, belts and all the associated costs of labour if you don't like doing it yourself really ups the ante. If one is looking at the long term, adding in a rebuild really jumps the cost per mile outa sight. So, routinely motoring upwind isn't so inexpensive after all.
.
As you say, sailing is expensive, and we have chosen to bear those expenses because we love the sport and the life that sailing has provided us. Others have chosen to enjoy the freedom, convenience and ease of motor yachts, and it ain't cheap either. Combining the benefits of both in a pilothouse motor sailor may give you the best of both approaches... or the worst.

We've noticed that in Tasmania, which has difficult wx at times, there seem to be two groups of yachts: race boats and pilot house boats. Well, perhaps that is an exaggeration, but there is a larger percentage of sailors there that have chosen to forego good windward performance for the comfort of a pilot house than in other areas of Australia. I can understand their reasoning!

So, yeah, Pilot House Envy is alive and well in our hearts too!

Jim
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Old 17-12-2014, 17:40   #20
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Re: Pilothouse Envy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
...

In Yarmouth, I was moored opposite a lovely Nauticat 521, in absolutely gorgeous condition. This is the old S&S design with some very old-fashioned features -- long overhangs and pronounced tumblehome.

It was interesting to compare her with my boat -- much shorter, ketch rig; much more freeboard; much shorter waterline; much bigger doghouse. So it's obvious who will sail upwind faster and closer. My boat looks like a greyhound in comparison.

But when I peeped into the pilothouse, I felt a rush of -- pilothouse envy. Wow, what a place to keep watch from on a long passage in hard weather. A what a wonderful place to hang out in at anchor or on the mooring. Like being in a room with a panoramic view overlooking the latest beautiful place you've sailed to. My boat has a raised salon a la Oyster, but you still sit down in the hull. Standing in the salon, you have a pretty good view out of decent size doghouse windows, but sitting, you only have two small hull ports to see out of. Yes, it's pretty light and less cave-like than many monos, but it's still down in the hull.

How much more pleasant it would be in a pilothouse like that on a long passage in the less-than-balmy weather we usually have at this latitude. You can even turn the heat on in there! And for sailing in good weather, there is an excellent open sailing cockpit, beautifully mated to the doghouse structure with clever design.

I do really get the tradeoffs of this design. Of course, you have lost ultimate upwind ability with the low ketch rig and the huge amount of windage from all that superstructure. But how important is that, really? If the engine is big enough to power upwind when it's needed, and the tankage adequate to do it long term. You will never pay for the diesel fuel with sailing ability, on a boat like mine, anyway. Just the laminate sails which I need to sail hard upwind cost more than a lifetime's worth of fuel. That Nauticat, with its modest rig and much smaller sails, can use ordinary Dacron sails costing a fraction of what my sails cost, and should still give perfectly acceptable sailing performance off the wind.

I don't know if I will ever have another boat than my own -- sometimes it seems like my life's work to get her in good condition and configured just like I want her. But if I ever did consider a different boat, I think it would be somewhat larger than this one (maybe 60' to 65'), and maybe something with a pilothouse.
You don't need the big sailing trade offs of a boat like the Nauticat 521 to sail from the interior of the boat and have that all around look. Most smaller boats with those characteristics are ugly to my eyes but over 50ft the needed extra height if well designed can make for a well proportioned boat. There are on the market several boats with those characteristics and on this European boat of the year contest 3 of the boast are that type of boat, even if very different.

The Garcia Exploration 45 (they are going to make two bigger boats), the Boreal 52 and the Moody 54ds. I put several links to the test movies, on one of the last posts on my blog, I mean the testing for the contest, they show the boats sailing and you can say a lot about how a boat sails just to see it sailing. It seems to me that the Moody sails very well, surprisingly well and the interior seems just gorgeous. The same I cannot say about the Garcia, but the Boreal has also a better interior than on the last models, a nice one if one likes simple things and a very functional interior.

if you want a motorboat, have a look at motorcats, there is an all generation of very interesting boats around and no other motorboat beats them in what regards efficiency.
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Old 17-12-2014, 18:15   #21
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Re: Pilothouse Envy

A few photos of the Garcia Exploration 45:
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Old 17-12-2014, 18:43   #22
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Re: Pilothouse Envy

> if you want a motorboat, have a look at motorcats

Or Brady motorsailer cats

Brady 52 Catamaran: Power Boats | Boats Online for Sale | Hand Laid Western Red Cedar Strip Planked And Epoxy Fibreglassed. | Queensland (Qld) - Coomera Qld

1996 Brady 44 Motorsailer: Sailing Catamaran for Sale | Epoxy Composite Sail Boats | Boats Online | Queensland (Qld) - Hamilton Island, Whitsundays
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Old 17-12-2014, 21:56   #23
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Re: Pilothouse Envy

Dockhead, I do love the option to get out of the weather and yet keep a good eye on what's going on outside.

I agree 60 to 65' is the right proportional balance for a PH and makes for a comfortable live aboard.

If you are into light wind sailing it is definitely the wrong design, but these days, an efficient motor sailor burns very little fuel to windward at a low RPM.

It suits me just fine.
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Old 17-12-2014, 23:28   #24
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Re: Pilothouse Envy

I came across an interesting comment by Skip Novak (a famous Whitbread and ocean racing skipper) regarding his view of a Pilothouse on a sailboat. He was discussing his boat Pelagic Australis.

"I am always amazed that so called ‘cruising boats’ are still being designed flush deck with no protection for the helmsman and crew. In our concept we started with the pilothouse and then designed the rest of the boat underneath it. Even in mid latitudes, shelter is an issue for comfort, not least of all safety. Our house incorporates an inside steering station, chart table, navigation instruments and a pilot bunk/settee."
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Old 17-12-2014, 23:54   #25
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Re: Pilothouse Envy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steady Hand View Post
I came across an interesting comment by Skip Novak (a famous Whitbread and ocean racing skipper) regarding his view of a Pilothouse on a sailboat. He was discussing his boat Pelagic Australis.

"I am always amazed that so called ‘cruising boats’ are still being designed flush deck with no protection for the helmsman and crew. In our concept we started with the pilothouse and then designed the rest of the boat underneath it. Even in mid latitudes, shelter is an issue for comfort, not least of all safety. Our house incorporates an inside steering station, chart table, navigation instruments and a pilot bunk/settee."
Very much agree.

I really dislike impractical flush deck sailboats where you have to live in a dungeon and sail with wet weather gear on. as for surviving on deck in the tropics.

A decent pilothouse where one can helm/ navigate out of the weather in comfort would be the only type of monohull I would consider.

I guess everyone has their own tradeoffs and I do like a proper pilothouse.

They are too practical for Polux.
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Old 18-12-2014, 01:14   #26
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Re: Pilothouse Envy

Most production boats are built (and used) as daysailers with living quarters. Huge open deck and cockpit area is a real bonus there. Have a nice sailing with the wind in your hair and perfect view around you when at helm. When it starts to rain or just gets dark you continue your party in the well lit and spacious cave.

Totally different story with a cruising yacht. You don't want all that sun and spray on you skin anymore. You need a safe protected space you can steer from. It's nice to have your gin and tonic with that phenomenal view through your boat windows. So, for my view a pilothouse or at least semi-opened doghouse is essential in that case. Well, paraphrasing a well known adage, you can race in any yacht but to cruise you need a cruiser.
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Old 18-12-2014, 10:57   #27
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Re: Pilothouse Envy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steady Hand View Post
I came across an interesting comment by Skip Novak (a famous Whitbread and ocean racing skipper) regarding his view of a Pilothouse on a sailboat. He was discussing his boat Pelagic Australis.

"I am always amazed that so called ‘cruising boats’ are still being designed flush deck with no protection for the helmsman and crew. In our concept we started with the pilothouse and then designed the rest of the boat underneath it. Even in mid latitudes, shelter is an issue for comfort, not least of all safety. Our house incorporates an inside steering station, chart table, navigation instruments and a pilot bunk/settee."
Most cruising boats are used only on the "cruising season" and most of them on some cruising grounds, like the med, Caribbean, Bahamas with warm climates and for that a huge cockpit for enjoying life on the outside makes a lot more sense. Boats with a pilot house or true deck saloon have normally a lot more interior space and a lot less cockpit space.

They makes sense for one that lives aboard all year on the boat or one that cruises out of the "cruising season" or in higher latitudes climates but those are just a minority and that's why those boats are a lot less common than the most usual type. In Europe most of the brands that make pilot house boats or true deck saloon are North European brands for climate reasons.

I remember that some years ago, a mass production boat builder made a true deck saloon yacht, one that was in production for a very short time (weak sells). The demands for that type of boat are few and don't justify a mass production boat and therefore they all are expensive small production boats.

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Old 18-12-2014, 13:26   #28
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Re: Pilothouse Envy

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Most production boats are built (and used) as daysailers with living quarters. Huge open deck and cockpit area is a real bonus there. Have a nice sailing with the wind in your hair and perfect view around you when at helm. When it starts to rain or just gets dark you continue your party in the well lit and spacious cave.

Totally different story with a cruising yacht. You don't want all that sun and spray on you skin anymore. You need a safe protected space you can steer from. It's nice to have your gin and tonic with that phenomenal view through your boat windows. So, for my view a pilothouse or at least semi-opened doghouse is essential in that case. Well, paraphrasing a well known adage, you can race in any yacht but to cruise you need a cruiser.

I agree!
And I liked the way you put it too.

I think many who enter into sailing find the sleek, fast looking, "racer styled" boats appealing. Who wouldn't want a Swan (or similar)?

But, I have spent enough days and nights at the helm in cold rainy windy cockpits to appreciate the dry and warm places on a boat. So I do find Pilothouses very appealing. Perhaps it is a sign I am getting old (over 50).
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Old 18-12-2014, 13:29   #29
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Re: Pilothouse Envy

What do we call the Gulf line of boats? Pilothouse? I had been interested in the Gulf 29 at one time until I realized that as soon as one steps and sits in the "pilothouse" one is too low to see out which seems to defeat the purpose of the pilothouse. True you can set up a seat and pilot from inside but anyone in a settee is well below window level a none starter for me should I ever get serious about moving to a pilothouse.
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Old 18-12-2014, 15:04   #30
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Re: Pilothouse Envy

Don't know the Gulf 29 vessel but at 29 ft it would be just be too difficult to include a decent pilothouse without compromises.
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