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Old 20-02-2015, 11:56   #1
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Pilothouse Boats -- Again

I know we've discussed this a few times, but I find myself fantasizing about this more and more, with millions of unanswered questions.

I really find myself wanting some kind of pilothouse boat. I re-read a couple of old and really interesting threads on here.

I have certain things in mind, but have never seen a boat which embodied them.

What seems really cool to me:

1. Inside watchkeeping station with good view forward and all around. All kinds of instruments. Engine control. Comfortable seat. Room for using paper charts and other printed materials -- full nav station functionality should be there. Wheel probably not needed -- I don't touch the wheel on passage anyway, and would do close pilotage and docking from outside in any case. I'd probably prefer to have one reliable rod-operated steering wheel in the outside cockpit.

2. The main salon needs to be in the pilothouse. It would be so cool to be able to sit above deck level and see out over whatever latest cool place you've sailed to. Needs to proper salon with enough space for everyone to hang out at anchor.

3. Ketch rig, but good sailing properties. So you need a good sailing cockpit -- this is hard to combine with a proper pilothouse. You also need a proper sailing underbody with bulb keel -- not found AFAIK in proper pilothouse yachts.

4. Enough engine power and fuel capacity to motor upwind in a gale.

5. LOA of 55 to 65 feet.


I looked hard at the Nauticat 525, and here are the things I didn't like about it:

1. Old fashioned hull form with short waterline (2 meters less than my present boat!), long fin keel, etc. Not a formula for good sailing.

2. The salon is broken up into two inferior halves -- one in the pilothouse and one below, neither of which is really any good. Maybe the boat altogether is just not quite big enough to pull this off. Or the pilothouse is too short, or something.

3. Galley in a cave, and very awkward transition from the house down into the main hull volume.

4. Hydraulic (ick) steering.

5. Clunky superstructure with lots of windage.


I have been drooling over the HR 65 for some time. Not a pilothouse, unfortunately. HR have put in big hull ports to give you some kind of view to the outside from the salon, and it's possible to order it with a hard dodger which would allow you to set up a watchkeeping station at the companionway hatch (as I do on my present boat). It's a lovely boat, but just not quite "it", frustratingly.

Another interesting approach is what Discovery yachts use -- a raised nav station which is high enough to see out the raised salon windows. Rather than sunken like the nav station on my boat. That's actually a pretty cool idea.
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Old 20-02-2015, 12:45   #2
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Re: Pilothouse Boats -- Again

Sounds like you're ready to step on up!

Atlantic 57 High Performance Cruising Catamaran by Chris White Designs

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Old 20-02-2015, 14:38   #3
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Re: Pilothouse Boats -- Again

I mentioned this in your other thread, but the closest thing to the boat you describe is a Kanter Bougainvillea (search for Dawnbreaker), or any of Chuck Paine's Bermuda series. Farrs are some nice pseudo-pilothouse boats as well.
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Old 20-02-2015, 14:43   #4
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Re: Pilothouse Boats -- Again

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Yes. So far the Chris White Atlantic 57 ticks more of my boxes, by far, than any other vessel. Even the price is reasonable! Why, oh why, does it have to be a cat?

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Old 20-02-2015, 14:44   #5
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Re: Pilothouse Boats -- Again

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I mentioned this in your other thread, but the closest thing to the boat you describe is a Kanter Bougainvillea, or any of Chuck Paine's Bermuda series.
Yes, thanks! Very cool vessels!

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Old 20-02-2015, 16:02   #6
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Re: Pilothouse Boats -- Again

What follows is intended to add to the general discussion topic about pilothouse boats. It is what I see and want, and obviously is not exactly what you want to find. For example, you want a longer boat and your budget may be much higher than mine and your desires for a newer or new boat is something I don't necessarily share. So, our general interest is the same, even if our specific needs or wants are different.

I hope you find the following at least interesting to read as a different set of preferences.
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I am strongly attracted to Pilothouse boats, and hope to get one in the future. I too have read many of the threads here on this forum related to Pilothouse boats.

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As I said, I like Pilothouse boats. I have an eye out for them. And I would appreciate anyone telling me of others in the future (a PM is good). I am still identifying brands and boats (years) and considering them.

Given the number of brands and years (I am looking back as far as 1985), I have seen a wide range of boats, styling, and asking prices.

My goal is to find a boat I would be happy to sail offshore and while I would want it to be comfortable in the tropics, I want the pilothouse because I would like to go where the water and air is colder in the future. I am looking for a "live aboard" for two people. Speed of the boat is not as important to me as the comfort and safety of the boat. My hull material preference would be in this order: Aluminum, Fiberglass, Steel. It is most likely I would be getting a fiberglass boat.

When I look at the various Pilothouse boats, here is what I prefer and am looking for in a boat:

1. I want the pilothouse to include a settee long enough for sleeping (6'3" or more) for the off watch or second on watch. I want to be able to sit and read (at anchor) while seated in the settee in the pilothouse and to be able to look out the Pilothouse windows/portlights without having to stand up to look out (which is why I don't like a typical "sunken" or low Deck Saloon style).

2. I would also like there to be a saloon table large enough for 4 people to eat around or for me to use for a "desk" when at anchor or in a marina. I am an artist, so I would like the table to be large enough for me to put out a half sheet of watercolor paper and my paints and stuff so I could comfortably sit in the Pilothouse settee and paint (for pleasure and to make my art). I want to do this surrounded by the natural light from the pilothouse windows.

3. I want a forward facing inside helm position (with wheel or with autopilot controls) that is positioned so one can truly see out the forward portlights. Some Deck Saloon boats have such low saloons that it appears one would need a ladder to look out of the forward portlights.

4. I want multiple portlights, but I don't feel they have to be huge (as seen on some boats). Moderate sized portlights would satisfy me. Reverse slope (like a Fisher) portlights in the front would not bother me and I do not prefer the very long/large forward sloping glass seen on some boats.

5. I want portlights on the aft bulkhead of the pilothouse (to look out back)

6. I would like a ketch, but would accept a cutter. Since I would also like an arch (for solar panels) to be added on the stern, I would not want a ketch rig that prevents the use of an arch.

7. I would like an outside helm position (such as a raised cockpit seen on some Nauticats). This could have the wheel on the bulkhead (this does not bother me).

8. If the settee (dinette) is large enough in the pilot house, I would not feel a need for the second dinette seating area down below. Larger Nauticats and some other brands have two dinette areas, but I don't expect to have a large crew so don't see the need.

9. While I can appreciate a galley "up" design, and have seen some nice ones, I do not prefer that. I prefer more "seating" and "sleeping" (long settee) in the Pilothouse, rather than a small galley there.

10. I would prefer to have a chart table in the pilothouse along with room for radar and chart plotter and some other instruments at the inside helm position.

11. I would prefer to have an aft cabin with a double berth, rather than two singles.

12. I would like a swim platform on the stern or something similar to be added if it does not exist in the design.
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I like them but they do not fit me for one reason or another.

Most of the boats I have seen that satisfy these wants are about 40-45 feet LOA.

While some smaller Pilothouse boats are nice and several are "salty" or have what appears to be good designs, I find that some have Pilothouse designs (interior space use) that do not fit my desires. Examples of those would be the Fisher line and some other brands. Why? Some have very short settees in the Pilothouse, or no table there, or a very small galley up but no good seating area in the pilothouse for anyone but the "pilot."

In general, I want the pilothouse to be used for seating (and watch keeping) and for use as my "office" (or art studio) while I am moored/anchored, rather than as a galley.

I anticipate a total crew of 2 (a couple, me and a mate/spouse) so I want there to be good seating for two in the Pilothouse.

_______________

Some boats of this size have very nice features, but may not fit exactly what I want or want to spend now. Some notable examples are shown in the photos I am posting below. These have some of the pilothouse characteristics I like.

Boats such as:

Buizen

Noordkapper

Bestevaer

Amazon 44 (This boat has one of the nicest pilothouse layouts I have seen, see the first photo below. While it does have the galley up, the port settee is just right for what I want with a large enough table for my needs as an artist.)

Nauticat
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Old 20-02-2015, 16:42   #7
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Re: Pilothouse Boats -- Again

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Old 20-02-2015, 17:33   #8
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Re: Pilothouse Boats -- Again

Check out the Farr 60.

A problem with what you are trying to achieve is there are unhappy compromises you will probably need to accept. A high pilot house saloon means poorer visibility from the deck helm. I think most good pilot house boats require the outside helmsman to stand to see forwards adequately. I like to sit. At a pinch my boat works from inside. Not ideal though as the helm is too far back and a little low. I have to stand to helm inside. The saloon seating is great though. Catamaran-like. The outside helm position is perfect and a 360 deg view is possible, so personally I wouldnt want to spoil that with a high saloon roof.
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Old 20-02-2015, 20:15   #9
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Re: Pilothouse Boats -- Again

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Hello Weavis. What brand and size of boat is that in the photo you posted?
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Old 20-02-2015, 20:18   #10
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Re: Pilothouse Boats -- Again

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Hello Weavis. What brand and size of boat is that in the photo you posted?
It is a Polish made vessel. They will build what size you want. This is twin cabin Haber 34c. Its one of the few motor sailers that I really like.

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Old 21-02-2015, 01:23   #11
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Re: Pilothouse Boats -- Again

You did not mention budget but since you looked at the Hr64 here is an alternative;
Jongert 27 DS;
1983 Jongert 27m Zeil Boot te koop - nl.yachtworld.com


cost less than halve,enormous deck saloon,ketch rig,big engine,bulletproof construction,there is also a smaller version for sale;'


Jongert 20 d Used Boat for Sale 1981 | TheYachtMarket


Also rustler yachts have got a 53 and a 63 design with deck salon,perhaps they can
make a ketch rigged version for you.
one other possibility is a ketch rigged version of the Axonite 69 or any smaller version of this design,€xpensive...


Cjheers,
JJ
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Old 21-02-2015, 02:22   #12
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Re: Pilothouse Boats -- Again

Look up Bob Perry, PS are just finishing Catari, and he has a new pilothouse verision as well
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Old 21-02-2015, 05:07   #13
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Re: Pilothouse Boats -- Again

Quote:
Originally Posted by poiu View Post
Check out the Farr 60.

A problem with what you are trying to achieve is there are unhappy compromises you will probably need to accept. A high pilot house saloon means poorer visibility from the deck helm. I think most good pilot house boats require the outside helmsman to stand to see forwards adequately. I like to sit. At a pinch my boat works from inside. Not ideal though as the helm is too far back and a little low. I have to stand to helm inside. The saloon seating is great though. Catamaran-like. The outside helm position is perfect and a 360 deg view is possible, so personally I wouldnt want to spoil that with a high saloon roof.
You can helm from inside? That's already very good.

I remember when I was looking at Oysters seeing some old Oyster (I think it was a 435?) where the owner had installed some kind of seat under one of the forward facing saloon windows -- for keeping watch from there.

How high is your doghouse above deck level? When I stand in my saloon, the deck is exactly at my shoulder (I'm 5'10"). This is not all that bad -- standing in the saloon I have a pretty good view out the sides. The saloon ports are heavy tempered glass and fairly skinny -- Bill Dixon was trying to keep windage down and prevent any chance of the ports being stove in by a breaking sea -- so I understand this. However, Oysters have bigger ports in the saloon, and I don't think they get stove in very often. The worst thing is that I can't see forward. I do have vestigial forward-facing saloon ports, but the house forward is too high to see over, and these small forward-facing ports are only good for letting in light or looking up at the rig. I guess that's another compromise intended to give headroom below forward, but the Oysters are different.

When seated in the saloon in my boat, you can also see out -- there are hull ports. But these are really small, so it's not much of a view.
And none of these ports, neither those in the doghouse, nor the hull ports, open. I can open only two hatches in the saloon roof, and the companionway --- that's it. Not so good for hot weather.


Catamaran-like seating in the saloon? I'll have to look at boats like yours again. In thinking about pilot house boats, I have started to imagine some of the spatial organization problems the concept creates and started to realize that a really proper saloon is going to be impossible on a pilothouse boat of less than a certain size, much bigger, probably, that what I can manage. This is not good -- I would not want to give up having a proper space for a reasonable number of people to gather.


Of course, the use of the word "catamaran-like" begs the question of why not a cat altogether. I do really like that Chris White cat, which pushes a whole lot of buttons for me. I wish I could see one in the flesh. There are simply no catamarans of any type in this part of the world.
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Old 21-02-2015, 05:30   #14
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Re: Pilothouse Boats -- Again

So, in a phone call to Haber, they will design you any size you want.
This is a 34 footer. As much room as I would need, Tiller and wheelhouse control. Two huge private cabins fore and aft.

Good boat........ but if you want sleek and sexy, this aint the boat for you. Its solid and sexy.....
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Old 21-02-2015, 05:51   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ77 View Post
You did not mention budget but since you looked at the Hr64 here is an alternative;
Jongert 27 DS;
1983 Jongert 27m Zeil Boot te koop - nl.yachtworld.com

cost less than halve,enormous deck saloon,ketch rig,big engine,bulletproof construction,there is also a smaller version for sale;'

Jongert 20 d Used Boat for Sale 1981 | TheYachtMarket

Also rustler yachts have got a 53 and a 63 design with deck salon,perhaps they can
make a ketch rigged version for you.
one other possibility is a ketch rigged version of the Axonite 69 or any smaller version of this design,€xpensive...

Cjheers,
JJ
Lovely!! What a gorgeous vessel. A great friend of mine (frequent crew on my boat) owned a boat this size (a Swan 90), which I spent some time on. This is a little different style of cruising, and certainly requires professional crew.

The acquisition price is a great bargain, less than the cost of an average refit for a vessel like this. Which is in itself a statement about the cost of ownership of a vessel like this. She seems to be in better than new condition.

A little too big for me for my present style of cruising. Ideal for me would be about 60 feet.

As to Rustlers - beautiful boats, but not my cup of tea. A full keel might be ok on a 27 meter steel ship with 1000m2 of sail, but otherwise not my cup of tea.
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