Pilothouse Boats -- Again

[weavis]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Yes, it's hard to argue with that logic.

As to why we don't get any shelter at the wheel --
--
Well, sailing is an outdoor sport, and the great majority of sailors don't go out in the rain, and don't sail multi-day passages in the cold.

Lately you see a lot of wedgie-type boats following the example of Wally and others with nearly flat decks and no house at all -- no shelter of any kind, even from the wind, like this:

Attachment 97702

That's made for striking a pose at the yacht club after a day sail in your white sweater and white cotton trousers, not for passage-making. At least not at our latitudes.

Well for those of us who live in Northern Climes..........as you well know we go out in cold weather...... sometimes there is no other

[Steadman Uhlich]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

That looks pretty good. The lifting keel, if it's hydrodynamically efficient, is a plus. But with a number of flaws. To get the galley up, however, they have adopted the dreadful practice of making the nav table seat a corner of the salon settee -- ick! Looks like you won't be able to see over the house from the aft steering position.

Hmmm….

While I agree with you on the seating position of the inside helm (on the edge of a settee) and would prefer a real "captain's chair" or seat with a back….

I disagree with your point about seeing over the cabin. The drawing shows a seated woman at the aft helm (there are two) position. It appears she can see over most of the relatively low cabin top. From a man's standing position (I am 6 feet tall) I don't think seeing past or over the cabin would be a problem.

That said, I do prefer the way the Nauticats have their raised aft deck helm position (great visibility). But there the compromise is in design/style and they do have a relatively higher cabin (pilot house) too.

As for the Garcia?
I would learn to live with it based on the many other nice features it offers, as a compromise. Or I would tell the builder I insist on a captain's chair in the saloon. I am sure that is something they have probably heard as a requirement.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Steady Hand

Every boat is a compromise.

The saloon and inside helm position of the Buizen 52.

Very good helm position!

But the salon is too low -- you look into cabinet doors

[DeepFrz]

Going back to the Kanter 62 for a moment, designed by one of the best, Chuck Paine. As you mentioned DH, Paine credited Dashew for introducing that particular hull shape. A fast seaworthy cruiser. Again getting the helm station away from the light is very important on overnight passages. I bet she's a dream to sail. The Kanter 53, designed by Dieter Empacher, is my lottery dream. But then my goal would be more high latitude sailing than most people here.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Steady Hand

...
As for the Garcia?
I would learn to live with it based on the many other nice features it offers, as a compromise. Or I would tell the builder I insist on a captain's chair in the saloon. I am sure that is something they have probably heard as a requirement.

If you like the type and want a chart table just in front of the "windows" you can go for this one:

Explorer 54 aluminum centerboarder sailboat with pilot house inside images

However when I am very old and want a really cozy sailboat I guess I will go for one of these. My wife loves them and would not mind to have one right now. I have to admit they sail pretty well for the type of boat:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMtwtyz3nAs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ub22bhf3TYo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q16lLxDDCHg

These are among the best built boats I have ever seen and much better designed than Nauticats, specially the big ones.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by DeepFrz

Going back to the Kanter 62 for a moment, designed by one of the best, Chuck Paine. As you mentioned DH, Paine credited Dashew for introducing that particular hull shape. A fast seaworthy cruiser. Again getting the helm station away from the light is very important on overnight passages. I bet she's a dream to sail. The Kanter 53, designed by Dieter Empacher, is my lottery dream. But then my goal would be more high latitude sailing than most people here.

I didn't know that! Where did you read about that?

Yes, naturally, latitude really shapes our ideas about what a boat should be like.

I like it up here, and my cruising dreams mostly involve even higher latitudes. Iceland, Greenland, NW Passage . . . . Patagonia . . . .

[Steadman Uhlich]

Howdy Polux!

Thanks for adding the videos for the Explorer and the Nordship. I will add them to my files for the future.

I looked at them and here is my view:

1. The both look like very nice boats.

2. On the Explorer, it appears the galley is UP in the pilothouse/saloon and it seems to take up a lot of the space.

While I could live with a galley "up" design, (and the Amazon 44 I like has that) I would prefer to have the galley "down" if it meant I would then have a larger settee with larger table "UP" in the pilothouse. I have in mind spending more time in the settee/table working over the time spent cooking. How much more time? For me, I anticipate 3 hours or less cooking. But I anticipate 12 hours or more each day/night at the settee + table in the pilothouse (relaxing or working on art or computer).

More importantly, I most especially want a very nice (roomy, comfortable, long) settee and large table UP in the pilothouse (for my sitting and enjoying the view and for work when anchored). To me, that WITH a inside (forward facing, near the front, with controls, inside helm position that can see out the front windows/ports easily) are the two features of a Pilothouse boat I most value/want/seek.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Polux

If you like the type and want a chart table just in front of the "windows" you can go for this one:

Explorer 54 aluminum centerboarder sailboat with pilot house inside images

That's a good arrangement -- nav station right in front of the house and full salon up.

Wonder, however, if you can see over the house from the outside helm?

I guess this is the inherent problem with this kind of arrangement.

[DeepFrz]

I think I read it on Chuck Paines website a number of years ago when he was discussing the Bougainvillaea design philosophy. He was actually talking about specifically, if I recall correctly, a glass boat that was a little smaller than the Kanter boats, around 45' I think. However, memory does not serve me all that well at times.
From Chuck Paine's comments on Hibiscus 46

In conceptualizing the Bermuda Series we recognized Steve Dashew's excellent work along the
same lines, which had resulted in a series of yachts (the Deerfoot/Sundeer line) aimed at a similar
target. Dashew can be credited for exploring the virtues of a relatively narrow, light displacement,
long waterline, nearly plumb-stemmed hull shape devoid of any of the distortions required for
racing.

Chuck Paine & Associates Yacht Design Inc., Camden Maine

I guess my memory isn't that bad after all...(yeah, right).

Edit: I think that is high praise indeed.

[Steadman Uhlich]

Hmmm… if the brief (or desire) is for high latitude sailing or cruising, AND one has up to 2 Million Euros to spend on a boat, then….

My Dream Boat

My true "dream boat" would be something like the Chuck Paine designed Aluminum Pilot House 56 foot cutter, "Seal." This is an "expedition" or "exploration" designed boat. Meant for high latitude living, but I don't see it as a boat restricted to high latitudes, rather as a boat in which I would comfortably explore the world with fewer limitations and a greater sense of safety at sea.

I wish MORE of these were built so there was a larger "used" market and more development of these types. So, all you folks wanting a "Blue Water Boat" go buy one or have one made for you, as that will lead to a larger market for them.

Expedition Sail - Sailboat Seal

What I especially like about it is the layout, and particular features such as the ballasted swing keel and the kick up rudders too. The ability to dry out the boat (on the hard/tidal flats) and the inherent safety and shallow water exploring advantage of swing keel and kick up rudders, greatly appeals to me. It is one of the reasons I also like the Ovni boats (but they do not have a pilothouse). For Seal, with the keel in the UP position, the draft is only 3'2" or .97m. With the keel DOWN, the draft is 8'9" or 2.7m.

For cold water exploring, it also has a Refleks hot water heating (for the cabins) system (something used on North Sea commercial fishing boats and some North Sea yachts).

According to the owner:

"Seal has a pivoting, ballasted centerboard for safety and ease of maneuvering in shallow areas and marginally charted regions. Both the rudder and keel lock down at sea, but when unlocked in coastal areas they can be lifted mechanically or will "kick up" in an unforseen grounding.

Because they both pivot, rather than being permanently fixed or (even more vulnerable) lifting straight up into the hull, the chances of damaging the keel or rudder in an accidental grounding are greatly reduced. Seal is the first high latitude cruising boat to ever be successfully fitted with a kick-up rudder. We hit an uncharted ledge at 8 knots, and the rudder kicked up without even losing any paint. Most boats would have lost their rudders in a similar hit."

One of the often criticized features of a Pilothouse sailboat is the use of larger glass portlights (windows) that may be vulnerable to storm conditions.

In Seal the pilothouse windows are designed and built to withstand extremes.

"The ten raised saloon windows are made up of two glass layers -- a 1/2" heat strengthened triple laminate, a 1/4" air gap for insulation, and 1/4" tempered insulated glass on the inside. In bad weather, 1/2" Lexan storm covers can be fitted over each one."

The boat also has two watertight bulkheads.

While I don't doubt this boat is more expensive to build than most cruisers want, and the styling is not what most sailors want, this boat appears to me to be a very good example of a true "blue water boat" that is well designed and features some very smart design considerations. I even like the way the owners have fitted out the galley.

The cabins look comfortable for use underway or in heavy weather. Unlike some "marina queens" or boats made for mild conditions, these berths/cabins look comfortable (and heated) and practical.

Obviously, every boat and owner is different, but these berths/cabins fit my preference for a long distance cruiser, including the fact that they are "light" (white) walls. I also like the mid-boat double berth (master's cabin).

Overall, this is VERY close to my "ideal" or "dream boat."

Of course I would like a boat with a nice or pretty wood interior too, and if I only wanted to sail the Med or the Caribbean or San Francisco Bay or around the Chesapeke, I would definitely select a different boat (perhaps a multihull). But I want to go other places. So, I would sacrifice some "tropical comfort design" for the ruggedness of a boat I would confidently take anywhere (Patagonia, Alaska, etc.).

[DeepFrz]

Steady Hand, that Seal is a great high latitude boat.

[Steadman Uhlich]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

That's a good arrangement -- nav station right in front of the house and full salon up.

Wonder, however, if you can see over the house from the outside helm?

I guess this is the inherent problem with this kind of arrangement.

Seeing over a pilothouse is an issue with SOME or MOST pilothouse boats. Some boats have terrible forward visibility from the aft cockpits. There is a recent Shannon boat that comes to mind.

I mentioned the raised aft deck helm position of the Nauticats (e.g. 43 or 44 etc.). From what I can see in videos and still photos, those appear to have very good forward visibility from the outside/aft helm, when the boat has the raised aft deck.

Here is a photo of my "dream boat" the Seal, with a view showing the helm being handled by a woman (I guess she is 5'7'' or shorter) and from this POV it seems that she can see over the Pilothouse easily with almost complete visibility forward while standing. In fact, the visibility appears to be better than many boats that have dodgers and no pilothouse.

I am taller, so I don't "see" a problem with it.

[weavis]

This solves all the problems..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Pem-4H1qg0

[JJ77]

Nice thread gents.okay this one is 14 feet too long but perhaps you can trade your boat in...


Deerfoot/Walsteds 74 for sale


Not sure about those salon windows giving a good view outside.

[DeepFrz]

Posted by funjohnson: Except for the cabin top which is fiberglass. I know it's for weight, but having two materials with a Plexus bond still seems wrong on an expedition boat.

About the Exploration 45:
If you look at this page and the next blog page you will see that the coach roof bonded to the aluminum structure is much, much different than bonding a plywood bulkhead to a fiberglass hull. For one thing look at the bonding surfaces in comparison. And they didn't do it for weight alone but because it was much easier to mold the desired shape.

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