Pilot House Vs Motor Sailor - Page 2

Amgine · 10-12-2008, 23:58

For a while there was a big argument about 'when' an auxiliary became a motorsailer - the 60/40 (percentage time sailing/motoring), the 80/20, etc. Then arguments were whether it had a protected steerage (like, for example, most of the large bulk freight windjammers which had wheelhouses.)

Some sailors prefer to look down their noses at motorsailers, and use the term pejoratively. Others use different criteria for applying it.

The 'Pilothouse' of today is more usually a 'raised-deck cabin' of a different time, which was the 'doghouse cabin' or 'deck cabin' of yet another period. It's a portion of the cabin whose sole is higher, giving a better view from within the protection of the cabin, and may or may not include an inside steering station.

A motorsailer is any sailboat in which motoring can reach or exceed theoretical hull speed, but more commonly it's any boat which usually uses its motor to assist, or instead of, sail propulsion.

The two terms are often used interchangeably. Though that may be a little loose usage for some people, most listeners understand what is meant so it's good usage.

Southern Star · 11-12-2008, 06:22

Christian, virtually no modern sailboat is powered with an auxilliary that is only sufficient to maneuver the boat in harbour in calm conditions. Indeed, if the ability to proceed under motor in rough conditions is the sole point of distinction for motorsailers, then most modern sailboats are motorsailers.

I think that Bob Perry's point is that we are getting into largely semantical differences in the context of modern yachts - since there are small trawlers with very small diesels and sailboats with very large ones, then the principle distinguishing feature is an inside steering station. There are motorsailers that are oriented more towards cruising under power than sail and others that are oriented more towards sail than power. As a result, as Bob says, in attempting a definition "the line can be blurred in so many ways."

Brad

bob perry · 11-12-2008, 08:36

I think Brad gets it. Exactly, if we went back to the 1930's just about every modern cruising boat would be considered a MS.

They are all just "boats" to me and they are all different in their own ways. It's a bit like trying to determine at exactly what point does stew become soup.
" That's a thick soup."
"No, that's a thin stew."

I am extremnely comfortable with my own flexible definition of MS. I hope you are all as equally comfortable with your own. If you want me to design a MS for you I would be very content to adopt your definition for the duration of the design project.

And yes, I did design the Far Harbor 39 Container Cruiser and BTW the owner always considered it a MS despite the fact that it would not fit some of the definitions I had read here.

Maybe motor sailer is more a state of mind.

jrd22 · 11-12-2008, 09:35

Having owned sailboats with inside steering stations for a long time I have come to the conclusion that, like Bob has said, it is mainly semantics. "Motorsailor" had a stigma to it that builders wanted to get away from when they designed a new boat with inside steering, so they called it a "Pilothouse". That apparently didn't quite give them the distance they were looking for so the newer designs are now "Deck Salons". Whatever. I refer to my Brewer as a pilothouse because that's what Ted called it and it's generally understood by everyone that that means a sailboat with inside steering.

John

bob perry · 11-12-2008, 09:59

No, I tell you. That is clam stew.

SeaKing · 11-12-2008, 10:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob perry

No, I tell you. That is clam stew.

I thought we were making Gumbo!

James S · 11-12-2008, 10:25

When I hear "motor sailor" I think it has to do with how the boat is meant to be used....when I hear "Pilot house" I think its regarding the structural or physical configuration or lay-out...like center or aft cockpit.

When I hear “Clam” It’s always chowder!

bob perry · 11-12-2008, 10:38

Jimmy:
I think that was very well put. I like it. I may use it.

James S · 11-12-2008, 10:43

It's yours.

jrd22 · 11-12-2008, 10:52

I actually like the term "clam stew" more than "deck salon", I've always thought that sounded like they were tying to cover up something. So now I guess I have a Brewer 40 Clamstew, eh?

John

Christian Van H · 11-12-2008, 15:10

Has anyone here ever seen a "Deck Salon" with inside steering?

Amgine · 11-12-2008, 15:44

Came up with the CR 400 Deck Salon, which makes me wonder what the heck a CR is...

Christian Van H · 11-12-2008, 16:19

You got me! Thats a first...I have never seen a "Deck Salon" with inside steering, and I like the "CR", whatever it is...

Amgine · 11-12-2008, 16:32

Charles Rutgersson Yachts. Not bad, not bad at all. Except the website, which is arguing with my browser.

CarlF · 11-12-2008, 17:52

The Discovery 55 is a deck salon with an inside helm seat. No wheel but an autopilot remote. It was at Annapolis this year.

http://www.discoveryyachts.co.uk/fil...tion_large.jpg

Carl

10-12-2008, 23:58	#16
Amgine Registered User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Vancouver BC Posts: 1,256 Images: 1	Semantics For a while there was a big argument about 'when' an auxiliary became a motorsailer - the 60/40 (percentage time sailing/motoring), the 80/20, etc. Then arguments were whether it had a protected steerage (like, for example, most of the large bulk freight windjammers which had wheelhouses.) Some sailors prefer to look down their noses at motorsailers, and use the term pejoratively. Others use different criteria for applying it. The 'Pilothouse' of today is more usually a 'raised-deck cabin' of a different time, which was the 'doghouse cabin' or 'deck cabin' of yet another period. It's a portion of the cabin whose sole is higher, giving a better view from within the protection of the cabin, and may or may not include an inside steering station. A motorsailer is any sailboat in which motoring can reach or exceed theoretical hull speed, but more commonly it's any boat which usually uses its motor to assist, or instead of, sail propulsion. The two terms are often used interchangeably. Though that may be a little loose usage for some people, most listeners understand what is meant so it's good usage. __________________ Amgine Blog On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog anchored in a coral atoll.

11-12-2008, 09:35	#19
jrd22 Registered User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Washington State, Blakely Island Boat: 1988 Brewer Three Seas 40' Pilothouse Posts: 106	Having owned sailboats with inside steering stations for a long time I have come to the conclusion that, like Bob has said, it is mainly semantics. "Motorsailor" had a stigma to it that builders wanted to get away from when they designed a new boat with inside steering, so they called it a "Pilothouse". That apparently didn't quite give them the distance they were looking for so the newer designs are now "Deck Salons". Whatever. I refer to my Brewer as a pilothouse because that's what Ted called it and it's generally understood by everyone that that means a sailboat with inside steering. John __________________ John Davidson S/V Laurie Anne 1988 40' Brewer Pilothouse

11-12-2008, 10:25	#22
James S Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Location: I live in Yemen...the boats in Lebenon Boat: 1978 CT48 Arctic Lady Posts: 1,144 Images: 125	When I hear "motor sailor" I think it has to do with how the boat is meant to be used....when I hear "Pilot house" I think its regarding the structural or physical configuration or lay-out...like center or aft cockpit. When I hear “Clam” It’s always chowder! __________________ James S/V Arctic Lady

11-12-2008, 10:43	#24
James S Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Location: I live in Yemen...the boats in Lebenon Boat: 1978 CT48 Arctic Lady Posts: 1,144 Images: 125	It's yours. __________________ James S/V Arctic Lady

11-12-2008, 10:52	#25
jrd22 Registered User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Washington State, Blakely Island Boat: 1988 Brewer Three Seas 40' Pilothouse Posts: 106	I actually like the term "clam stew" more than "deck salon", I've always thought that sounded like they were tying to cover up something. So now I guess I have a Brewer 40 Clamstew, eh? John __________________ John Davidson S/V Laurie Anne 1988 40' Brewer Pilothouse

11-12-2008, 06:22	#17
Southern Star Registered User Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Belleville, Ontario, Canada; Playa Zaragoza, Isla de Margarita Boat: 1994 Solaris Sunstream 40 'Estrella del Sur' Posts: 1,009	Christian, virtually no modern sailboat is powered with an auxilliary that is only sufficient to maneuver the boat in harbour in calm conditions. Indeed, if the ability to proceed under motor in rough conditions is the sole point of distinction for motorsailers, then most modern sailboats are motorsailers. I think that Bob Perry's point is that we are getting into largely semantical differences in the context of modern yachts - since there are small trawlers with very small diesels and sailboats with very large ones, then the principle distinguishing feature is an inside steering station. There are motorsailers that are oriented more towards cruising under power than sail and others that are oriented more towards sail than power. As a result, as Bob says, in attempting a definition "the line can be blurred in so many ways." Brad

11-12-2008, 08:36	#18
bob perry Commercial Vendor Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 259	I think Brad gets it. Exactly, if we went back to the 1930's just about every modern cruising boat would be considered a MS. They are all just "boats" to me and they are all different in their own ways. It's a bit like trying to determine at exactly what point does stew become soup. " That's a thick soup." "No, that's a thin stew." I am extremnely comfortable with my own flexible definition of MS. I hope you are all as equally comfortable with your own. If you want me to design a MS for you I would be very content to adopt your definition for the duration of the design project. And yes, I did design the Far Harbor 39 Container Cruiser and BTW the owner always considered it a MS despite the fact that it would not fit some of the definitions I had read here. Maybe motor sailer is more a state of mind.

11-12-2008, 09:59	#20
bob perry Commercial Vendor Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 259	No, I tell you. That is clam stew.

11-12-2008, 10:38	#23
bob perry Commercial Vendor Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 259	Jimmy: I think that was very well put. I like it. I may use it.

11-12-2008, 15:10	#26
Christian Van H Registered User Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Princeton, NJ Boat: Challenger Anacapa 42 Posts: 1,161 Images: 57	Has anyone here ever seen a "Deck Salon" with inside steering? __________________ Here's to swimmin' with bowlegged women! "There's nothing . . . absolutely nothing . . . half so much worth doing as simply throwing money at a boat."

11-12-2008, 15:44	#27
Amgine Registered User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Vancouver BC Posts: 1,256 Images: 1	Quick google search Came up with the CR 400 Deck Salon, which makes me wonder what the heck a CR is... __________________ Amgine Blog On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog anchored in a coral atoll.

11-12-2008, 16:19	#28
Christian Van H Registered User Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Princeton, NJ Boat: Challenger Anacapa 42 Posts: 1,161 Images: 57	You got me! Thats a first...I have never seen a "Deck Salon" with inside steering, and I like the "CR", whatever it is... __________________ Here's to swimmin' with bowlegged women! "There's nothing . . . absolutely nothing . . . half so much worth doing as simply throwing money at a boat."

11-12-2008, 16:32	#29
Amgine Registered User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Vancouver BC Posts: 1,256 Images: 1	Charles Rutgersson Yachts. Not bad, not bad at all. Except the website, which is arguing with my browser. __________________ Amgine Blog On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog anchored in a coral atoll.

11-12-2008, 17:52	#30
CarlF Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 231	The Discovery 55 is a deck salon with an inside helm seat. No wheel but an autopilot remote. It was at Annapolis this year. http://www.discoveryyachts.co.uk/fil...tion_large.jpg Carl Attached Images

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes	Rate This Thread
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode	Rate This Thread:

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
1998 50' Celestial Pilot House Opinions Please	waterworldly	General Sailing Forum	1	03-09-2008 06:59
Sliding Windows in pilot house, moss included	billr	Construction, Maintenance & Refit	4	05-05-2008 15:27
Leaky Windows/pilot house	Lady Diane	Construction, Maintenance & Refit	5	14-03-2008 10:16
Bizzare Motor-Sailor	Thermal	General Sailing Forum	2	20-10-2007 11:28
Deck Salon/Pilot House Windows and Safety	Curtis	Monohull Sailboats	1	17-07-2005 21:18