Performance Cruisers vs Minivans

[Knot Fast]

Consider chartering first, trying several different boats. Include a cat.
You are trying to optimize 2 parameters: performance and comfort.
Most discussion has focused on performance. Try chartering the smallest boat you'd consider buying, to determine if you can LIVE with that. In the off season, a charter Co might let you try 2 or 3 boats over a week. YOUR best boat might be the one you sail the most, not the one that wins the race...

[Tillsbury]

Originally Posted by moseriw

Do not look for the late models unless you want to buy an amel or such.
All out in the market are manufactured for coastal charter bizz in the cheapest possible manner. Though said, all are scrap. You pay 300.000 bucks and get notting valuable.

Look out for pre 1990 boats, especially for so called bluewater cruisers. Long keel, ketch or schooner and do not expect to race around the world. Be glad with 6 knots, no matter what boat you have. With a performance cruiser you may get 10-12 knots out but it is terrible hard work to do so. Finally even the performancers reduce speed to keep the long run comfortable.

And: as a liveaboard you stay 85% an anchor or in a marina. Not worth the effort having a performance, light build and lousy manufactured nightmare.

But have a watch of some Sail Life videos before buying an 80s boat, and don’t be surprised if you need to rebuild the hull, rudder, deck, and structural members before you even go out sailing...

[David M]

The larger a boat and then a ship gets, the duller the motion gets. The slower it pitches and the slower it rolls and yaws, the better. That is a good thing when things get crazy out. You would not want to be on something that responds like a Laser when in a storm.

[TrentePieds]

Quote: "But have a watch of some Sail Life videos..."

Hmmm.. I don't think we need to think that ALL forty year old boats need ALL the treatment Mads Dalke blogs about. He's a nice chap and does a good job both of the work he does on Athena, and of making videos. But remember that Athena is really just a vehicle for his being a blogger. Mads' purpose is, I believe, first and foremost that of being a blogger. He's sort of cornered the market on blogging to the novices. Winding up with a nice boat as a result of blogging is really quite secondary.

Just a few weeks ago a Fast Passage 39 at our marina, fully found, ready to circumnavigate, went for sixty-odd grand Canadian.

TP

[Jammer]

Hellp JP


Welcome to the forums.

Originally Posted by jpbronco

The top of our list was the J 44DS. Having sailed a 10' shorter variation of that boat for 2 days in 10kts of wind, I've found it a boor to sail. I'm asking the community on what's better or if I'm off my rocker.

Well, respectfully, I think the replies upthread that state that the boats you're looking at perform pretty well are spot on. Here's what's going on IMO:

1. 10 knots is not much wind for a large boat, probably barely enough to get the most out of it.
2. It is likely that the boat used for your class was not equipped and sailed for performance. They don't use radial cut sails on charter boats. They typically don't use a spinnaker, or any other more specialized sails, in those classes, and they may have used a smaller headsail/less headsail than was ideal from a performance standpoint, for ease of handling.
3. As noted upthread, many boats come in "race" versions or have "race" modifications, chiefly involving the size of the mast and keel.
4. You will never get the sort of personal connection to the wind and water that you get with a smaller boat, even though you will usually be going faster. On the other hand, you can be out safely in conditions that are simply not safe in a smaller boat

[Rjt]

I’ve sailed the Jeanneau 40DS Vanuatu to New Caledonia. It sailed well, but nowhere near as well as my Bavaria 44. Last year I sailed my boat Sydney to Whitsundays (1,000nm). Then flew back and sailed a friends Jenneau 349 on the same trip. There’s little comparison. The Jenneau 349 is a very simple rig and sail control package to keep the price down. It can sail reasonably well, but there’s not much to trim. Downwind it’s very different to the 40DS. One night, in short steep following seas and over 20kn it felt it was digging its nose into the seas in front, and then kicking from away from its chine. The owner just declared they were too uncomfortable (scary) and went to bed. It wasn’t a good ride. Personally, the 349 is not for me. The 40 DS was comfortable. But I haven’t sailed the 44 DS. Like many others here, I’d suggest getting some time on a 44DS. Or buy a Bav 44!

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Rjt

I’d suggest getting some time on a 44DS. Or buy a Bav 44!

Plus a lot of other yachts by going and chartering some in different locations.

that knowledge of what you like and dislike ought to form the decision on what to buy and will be completely different to walking around a boat show or looking at brokerage yachts.

Pete

[thomm225]

First off, most all monohull sailboats are slow and capable of making you yawn in those wind and sea conditions unless you are racing and actually in the race

A smaller, lighter boat possibly with a spinnaker when you learn to handle that extra sail will add to the fun/excitement.

A friend once described monohulls racing being like racing Winnebagos complete with kitchen and bathroom (galley and head)

When it gets windy and rough is when it can be exciting and fun to a point. That point being when the boat gets uncontrollable or you get too tired to play anymore but the weather isn't!

I enjoy sailing my old boat upwind in around 12 -14 knots or downwind for a few hours in winds as high as low 30's as long as everything is working and nothing breaks. If something breaks in winds 30 and over the excitement can get quite high especially if you don't have a lot of (sea) room to run

As someone said early, wait until you learn a bit more then consider which aspect of sailing you like best. Some get into sail not to sail as much as to get away and be self-sufficient.

Others like to try to squeeze every knot or 1/2 knot out of their boat with the latest sails and equipment and get it to sail to it's (PHRF) rating.

Then their are small racing boats that can be as fast as or faster than the larger ones and you have to work to handle them in a breeze. Boats like the Olson 30

For small boats faster than that you have to go to beach cats, racing cats, or dinghies which can hit speeds in the mid 20's and above

[Paul Howard]

Consider a multihull if you find monohulls racer/cruiser boat boring.
Though you will find, that five knots on a monohull is different from a 'feeling like you are standing still' feeling on a multihull.
You can only find your comfort level and enjoyment of sailing by trying out many different styles of boats (try out catamarans and trimarans of various cruising vs. racing models) as well as monohulls. I circumnavigated on a monohull in my early sailing years, changed to a performance cruising catamaran and loved it. I now sail a more performance oriented catamaran that I local race and find it great.

I have a friend and fellow club member with a Corsair F27 who also races motorcycles. He regularly participates in club races and says, "Racing a sailboat is really and oxymoron, as regularly sailing at nine knots on a multihull v.s. 200kms per hour on his motorcycle is very different."

[moseriw]

Rjt : a few weeks ago I sailed a brand new bavaria 50.

The electric platform fuse gave up on every up or down.
Originally it was situated in the compartment of the rudder quadrant and has to be screwed.



The charter company changed this to an easy to reach autofuse which nevertheless gave up on every up/down too.


the fridge is about 600 litres. I think it will consume 12Ah.
The whole boat is computerized. No switches, no fuses just a confusing B&G Plotter/Computer.

Wirth the frigde it took 4 hrs to run donw to 10,4V. Without the fridge 8 hrs.

I took a close look to the B&G on boarding but it took me 20 minutes again to find the menu to activate the windlass.

Huill thickness 6mm (my Vagabond 47 has 25mm)
Seackocks: the cheapest homedepot valves
Door angles hardware: home depot

(on another 3 years old -completely corroded)

Interial wood: home depot

Interial woodworks: even a newbee DIY could do it better.


B&G and 12V Backbone.
After the complete brakedown of the system and an engine restart it took 15 minutes to get a fix and 30 minutes to have the AP again.

Sorry to see this as Bavarias were good boats up to the 90ties but now I certainly do not want to sail one any more.

And most of the others do not built their boasts any better asthe only thing that counts nowadays is the return on investment.

Qualitymanagment is to sell the lowest and cheapest possible quality to satisfy customers.


OK 90% are not able to DIY but I hink they should not buy a boat or even not board a boat.

If one is not able to repair almost everything on a boat he is a risk for his and his crews life.

[Wireless1]

Originally Posted by jpbronco

...I should have mentioned that we both have sailed for years, race on Wed nights and owned a 26' cabin cruiser for a few years. We are taking the certification route for insurance and cover gaps in our knowledge.

I perused this thread for information from you that I did not find.
Thus prompts the question; since you have both raced for years, can you let us all know what boats you raced on that did have the performance level you are looking for in your "big" boat?

For laughs take a reversed order look at my previously owned boats below and my abbreviated assessment of each based on my experience at the time...an "evolution if you will"... LOL

Columbia 22: my newbie boat. Super cheap and a blast - 2 years
Rawson 30 (7 year circumnavigation) : heavy, safe, slow, easy to sail, lived aboard - 15 years
Morgan Classic 41: Heavy, safe, slow, easy to sail, lived aboard - 10 years
F-24 Trimaran: scary safe, scary fast, taught me a LOT -- too scary - 5 years
Freedom 32 (cat sloop): light, safe, slow as a rock based on my F24 - 6 years
Beneteau 473: Safe, fast (PHRF 60's), push button sailing, not boring, presently living aboard - 2 years and counting (at age 70!).

Some things take some time to figure out...

Martin
2006 Beneteau 473 "Lucky Spin"

[izzyforreal]

If it's like most of the other Jeanneau Deck Salons I've seen, it's got a mast furling (read: small) main and a roughly 100% jib. You're not going to have a fun ride in wind speeds around 17 kts. and below. A nice used J/Boat would probably fit the bill.

Mark DeDionisio
Tartan 40 Sister Moon

[jpbronco]

This has been a great thread and I appreciate everyone's input. I've definitely learned a lot and we've changed the way we are approaching our next boat (and added several more to the research list). I do think it's going to be a journey a lot like Wireless1 posted with it being several boats over the years that change with our lifestyle.

I do like the thread that Jammer started and surprised to learn that 26% of us have chartered a boat similar to the one we have currently purchased.
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...g-221148.html?

[Sailmon]

I realize I’m somewhat biased - but we have been sailing Freedoms for past 24 years. Would suggest checking out Freedom 45. Tons of living space. Sea kindly. Screams on a reach. Adequate to weather.

[RKsailsolo]

Regarding the OP perception of Jeanneau SO 349, you have to look far and wide to find a performance cruiser that can be single handed and offer the space and capabilities of thE 349. I own a 2015 349 and can tell you that if my hull is dirty and I take it out in ten knots of wind with full tankage and crew on board, I am not expecting active sailing. With the same scenario in 16 to 20 knots, the boat comes alive and regularly exceeds 7 knots boat speed with sloppy trim. Want more? Cough up another $50 grand and get a Jeanneau Sunfast 3300 with a stripped out interior and a standy crew to help you wrestle the beast.

http://interestingsailboats.blogspot.com/search?q=349