Performance cruiser recommendations

[Pint76]

I love the Cigale 14.
I think it will be my next boat...

Originally Posted by funjohnson

Cigale 14

Some highlights:

Amazing aft saloon with 280 degree views
ULDB boat (45' 16,000 pounds)
7' draft with water ballast keeps heel under 11 degrees
Stern step for dinghy storage
Extremely stiff aluminum construction
Huge cockpit
200 NM days!
One in the Caribbean for $260k list

Matt

[bstreep]

There is no such thing as a perfect boat. The Catalina 470 mentioned above, along with it's little sister the 400, are my absolute favorite coastal cruisers. As noted, being careful, they can cross oceans. But, they won't be as comfortable as sturdier, more heavily built boat in heavy seas. I love both of them.

We have a Macintosh 47. One for sale in Annapolis, very well equipped, and well maintained. The market is soft on these boats because only 16 were built (the builders were losing over $100K per boat when they quit). It is stout, decent in light air, fantastic above 15kts. Hull speed with ease, and also under power. We have few complaints.


P.S. I love everything about the Cigale except the aluminum hull.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by bstreep

There is no such thing as a perfect boat. The Catalina 470 mentioned above, along with it's little sister the 400, are my absolute favorite coastal cruisers. As noted, being careful, they can cross oceans. But, they won't be as comfortable as sturdier, more heavily built boat in heavy seas. I love both of them.

We have a Macintosh 47. One for sale in Annapolis, very well equipped, and well maintained. The market is soft on these boats because only 16 were built (the builders were losing over $100K per boat when they quit). It is stout, decent in light air, fantastic above 15kts. Hull speed with ease, and also under power. We have few complaints.


P.S. I love everything about the Cigale except the aluminum hull.

What makes a 470 a coastal cruiser or better still why do you have to be more careful crossing an ocean on a 470 than yours?
Please be specific, I'd like to know.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by daletournier

What makes a 470 a coastal cruiser or better still why do you have to be more careful crossing an ocean on a 470 than yours?
Please be specific, I'd like to know.

Dale
You are never going to safely make it across the Indian Ocean in that coastal cruiser. Well at least not a second or third time😚

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by daletournier

What makes a 470 a coastal cruiser or better still why do you have to be more careful crossing an ocean on a 470 than yours?
Please be specific, I'd like to know.

Dale, You didn't ask me, but I don't see much of anything that would differentiate either one of these boats from the other. Maybe because so many Catalinas were built and sold people might confuse mass production with lessor quality. I don't see that myself.

I will note that the Mac is 3000lbs heavier and that is apparently in the keel.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Dale
You are never going to safely make it across the Indian Ocean in that coastal cruiser. Well at least not a second or third time��

I don't get where you are coming from with that comment. I have a much lighter and somewhat smaller boat and I have successfully crossed the Indian Ocean (very wild crossing) and all the other oceans, and so I don't buy that either the Cat 470 or the Mac 47 is a "Coastal Cruiser" or incapable of crossing such as the Indian Ocean, or once having done it someone would not want to repeat it.

Are your prejudices showing?

This shot is what we saw for 18 days. Avg wind: 25++ Avg seas: Big and a cross swell.

[daletournier]

I query such comments because they are rarely backed by facts.

Here's an eg. I'm currently on the hard. Theres a large Tayana (I dont want to say the size or give more details for privacy reasons) also here. Now the Tayana is the Bluewater boat right, more sturdily built than my Catalina 470 ,right?

I'm sitting on my keel, all doors open normally, all floors come up normally etc, zero noticable flexing. The floors on my mates Tayana are jamming because the boats flexing a little.

Now here's the bigger bit. The tayana had bad osmosis so the owner decided to plane the hull thinking it was solid glass ,turns out its foam. In large sections the glass has been peeled off to the foam. There is literally thousands of voids visible in the lay up, you can see them through the glass. It appears that the outer layer of glass is layed up then some sort of filler/glue bog applied and the foam laid into that. The voids are between the glass and the bog, 1000,s of them. But hey that hull is stronger than my 1 inch solid glass hull right (below the waterline)?

The picture below was taken last week when I removed a tranducer. This is between the keel and the bow on the port side, approx 1.5m behind the collision bulkhead.

In regards to taking it easy while crossing oceans, really? Do you really think I sailed more conservatively than the Amel 54 or the Tayana that i crossed the South Atlantic with? Do you think I missed the gales or bad weather that others got in the Indian Ocean? Do you think I've never screwed up and got caught out and put the boat under alot load?

My point is theres alot of heresay in these forums, not alot if facts at times, thus I ask for the facts.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I don't get where you are coming from with that comment. I have a much lighter and somewhat smaller boat and I have successfully crossed the Indian Ocean (very wild crossing) and all the other oceans, and so I don't buy that either the Cat 470 or the Mac 47 is a "Coastal Cruiser" or incapable of crossing such as the Indian Ocean, or once having done it someone would not want to repeat it.

Are your prejudices showing?

This shot is what we saw for 18 days. Avg wind: 25++ Avg seas: Big and a cross swell.

Wingsail,
I was being facetious. Dale has already sailed his Catalina 470 across the Indian Ocean and the South Atlantic. His is a well cared for and prepared offshore boat capable of many more ocean crossings. I know another 470 that also has many long ocean passages under its belt. There were some rudder issues with these boats, but once replaced they are good to go.

[bstreep]

Originally Posted by daletournier

What makes a 470 a coastal cruiser or better still why do you have to be more careful crossing an ocean on a 470 than yours?
Please be specific, I'd like to know.

I stand corrected. As I've said, I love both of the boats - my favorite production boats. I had the 400 more in mind on my comment. Dale, you obviously have a tiny bit of experience in crossing oceans on a 470 (I'm being facetious - just want to make sure you know) and that's way more than I have. Honestly, about the only thing I'd fault the 470 for is a deck stepped mast. And that's pretty silly on my part.



I will say that the design displacement of our boat is 30,500 lbs, yet they all seem to tip scales at 38K plus. We were damaged during Hurricane Harvey 2 years ago, where we rode over a piling and the stern was left on top of the piling. The very well respected surveyor said "any other boat and that piling would be in the aft cabin". Zero damage from the piling.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by bstreep

I stand corrected. As I've said, I love both of the boats - my favorite production boats. I had the 400 more in mind on my comment. Dale, you obviously have a tiny bit of experience in crossing oceans on a 470 (I'm being facetious - just want to make sure you know) and that's way more than I have. Honestly, about the only thing I'd fault the 470 for is a deck stepped mast. And that's pretty silly on my part.



I will say that the design displacement of our boat is 30,500 lbs, yet they all seem to tip scales at 38K plus. We were damaged during Hurricane Harvey 2 years ago, where we rode over a piling and the stern was left on top of the piling. The very well respected surveyor said "any other boat and that piling would be in the aft cabin". Zero damage from the piling.

No problem, my response wasnt personal, I just deliberately clarify these sorts of things just so they dont gain momentum, which they do anyway.

For the record the C470 tips the scales in full cruising kit at approx 36k. As I said below the water is solid glass , above is balsa ,we save abit of weight there.

The C470 isnt a perfect boat, there's things I dont like ,but they are a good boat.

Cheers Dale.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Dale, You are never going to safely make it across the Indian Ocean in that coastal cruiser. Well at least not a second or third time��

I took this as being absolutely sarcastic, and it gave me a good chuckle

Yes there can be 'some' issues with 'some' production boats, but on the other hand I always looked at the alternative suggestions, those 'real serious offshore cruising boats', you know 35ft, double end, cutter, heavy displacement, loaded down, 10 jerry cans of fuel and water lashed on deck + other cruising paraphernalia, and I thought, that thing can't sail itself out of a wet paper bag - is that what they mean by safer?

A long time ago I already concluded, not...

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

I took this as being absolutely sarcastic, and it gave me a good chuckle [emoji3]

Yes there can be 'some' issues with 'some' production boats, but on the other hand I always looked at the alternative suggestions, those 'real serious offshore cruising boats', you know 35ft, double end, cutter, heavy displacement, loaded down, 10 jerry cans of fuel and water lashed on deck + other cruising paraphernalia, and I thought, that thing can't sail itself out of a wet paper bag - is that what they mean by safer?

A long time ago I already concluded, not...

I'll take the never ending debate further, what's a production boat?

Im fairly certain theres been more Amel Super Maramus built that Catalina 470's, there was approx 170 C470's built, does this mean that the Super Maramu is more of a production boat than a C470?

The C470 has a deck stepped mast, does that mean it's less Bluewater capable? If so the same logic applies to Amel, deck step masts, bolt on keel, inmast furlers.......the logic in many of the cruisers forum debates in this area is often non existent, people regurgitate heresay that's not substantiated.

Also remember some of these older boats are heavier due to such things as black iron tanks, crazy amount of heavy teak and chopper guns, this dosent mean they are always stronger......let's not let facts get in the way of good stories.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by daletournier

... the logic in many of the cruisers forum debates in this area is often non existent, people regurgitate heresay that's not substantiated.

...let's not let facts get in the way of good stories.

Agreed