Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

[TacomaSailor]

Here is another Caliber 40 you might look at or think about:

http://www.mahina.com/KTooTflyer9313.pdf

I helped these folks buy and outfit Ktoot. It is in excellent sail away condition and needs no additional work. It is an LRC and they spared no expense to prepare it for cruising. Most of the equipment is less than five years old.

The only two problems are
$189K in Seattle

You might get the price down a little and truck it down to Florida.

Compare a $195k delivered price, with a sail away boat, in Western Florida to buying a $150K boat in Maryland, sailing it to Forida, and spending $20k and a year or two outfitting it.

[TacomaSailor]

DDABS,

There is a great thread about the cost of owning a 40ish foot sailboat - http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...at-100855.html - march this year

Here is some data I provided for repairs, replacements, and upgrades I have done in the last six-years. It might give you an idea of what kinds of things to examine and consider in your search for an "older" Caliber 40.

One think to note here - the number of "small ticket" (less than a boat unit of about $100) and how they add up. Most of them are pretty inconsequential items but can cause difficulty if not attended to.

I fix things before they break and keep pretty detailed records of my expenses.

$5,500 New custom made Hydranet Mainsail (using old hardware)
$ 300 Repair 120% RF genoa
$ 600 New Main, Genoa, Spinnaker Halyards
$ 2,700 new autopilot (old one was 18 years old and still worked 'sorta)
$ 2,400 new Technautics refrigeration compressor & plumbing
$ 1,500 new dodger canvas and glass
$ 750 re-certify life raft
$ 900 2 round trip haul outs - total
$ 900 4 gallons bottom paint
$ 600 new prop shaft
$ 600 six T-105 batteries
$ 450 insurance survey (last one was 2004)
$ 385 new drive motor for autopilot (to match new course computer)
$ 275 diesel water pump
$ 250 new windlass motor
$ 250 20 zincs (prop, strut, shaft) about
$ 250 new helm pedestal compass
$ 200 new skeg/rudder shoe
$ 200 fill two propane tanks a year (six years worth)
$ 165 new GPS
$ 158 One new Yanmar motor mount
$ 150 new cables for most of the batteries
$ 150 new genoa sheets
$ 116 ARDIC diesel heater glow plug, fan, spare parts
$ 110 2 Rule 500 bilge pumps
$ 110 new lid for LaVac toilet
$ 100 five sets of Raccor fuel filters
$ 100 periodic replacement of dozens of hose clamps
$ 100 sandblast Sailomat windvane
$ 94 Johnson rebuildable bilge pump
$ 87 new broiler for Force 10 stove
$ 75 new battery box
$ 75 all new water hoses for diesel
$ 75 Group 27 battery for diesel start circuit
$ 75 wax and light polishing compound for gel coat
$ 75 paint for Sailomat
$ 72 six oil filters
$ 72 OPV valve for old propane tank
$ 72 new galley overhead light
$ 65 new freshwater Shurflo pump
$ 60 new cutlass bearing
$ 50 rebuild carberautor and water pump in outboard
$ 50 new heavy snubber lines for anchor
$ 50 two 15 amp 12V circuit breakers
$ 48 AC circuit breaker for main shorepower
$ 45 3 repacks on packing gland on prop shaft
$ 44 new sensors for water and diesel tank levels
$ 42 rebuild forward head internals
$ 40 labor for shop to rebuild starter on outboard
$ 35 new drains in galley sink
$ 35 new companionway lock
$ 30 new hoses for forward head
$ 30 new line for adjustable genoa car leads
$ 27 new dock steps
$ 25 all new water hoses for Ardic diesel heating system
$ 25 repair Nikon binoculars
$ 25 diesel antifreeze and coolant flushing
$ 25 replace water heater safety valve
$ 25 new GFCI for starboard AC circuit
$ 25 gallons of distilled water for house batteries
$ 22 new suction line for anchor washdown system
$ 22 companionway hasp
$ 19 replace suction line from water tank to freshwater pump
$ 17 new spray head for galley sink
$ 10 swim step shower head
$ 10 gallons of vinegar to flush thru head
$ 10 new fuel line from aft tank to Raccor

$20,500 or so and I did ALMOST ALL the work myself - there is very little labor cost included in this list. I would guess "hired" labor costs here in San Diego would be over $10,000 IF I had paid a boat guy to do all the work.

labor costs that are included in the list above are:
- $400 paint bottom
- $1,000 for help with motor mount, cutlass bearing, prop shaft replacement - that was a two person job and I got a discount from a professional mechanic friend
- $450 for insurance survy

Just more stuff for you to think about!

[DDabs]

That's a beautiful boat. Something to consider. On the other hand, I've grown fond of the idea of sailing the Caliber without much gear on it, learning the boat and what I think I would need, and outfitting myself to gain experience. I truly doubt it would take a year or so to outfit the boat- all it really needs are some bolt on, drop in installations, and it would be good to go to at least the Caribbean, which is my first destination.

[DDabs]

Wow, that is detailed! I like your style of keeping preventative maintenance on a boat. I ran a bar for a few years, and keeping everything in that place up to snuff- I practically lived at the bar! I like to keep everything running as efficiently as possible, I get very OCD about mechanical systems running in optimum condition.

[robert sailor]

Can't disagree, always better to go sailing for awhile and then decide where your hard earned money should be spent. All of us have our own ideas on this subject, some are more minimalists and others are toy freaks with the rest of us somewhere in the middle.

[TacomaSailor]

DDabs,

Starting with a minimalist boat and then using it as you intend for the long term and then outfitting as needed is, IMHO, the best possible way to go.

LRC or not is of little consequence

Good Luck

[DDabs]

Tacoma,
Can't say how thankful I am for all of your input and knowledge. Thanks to everyone else who chimed in as well!

I will keep posting in this thread as I find out more information in the coming weeks. Getting very excited!!!

David

[gjordan]

Tacoma, your list of expenses is a great reality check for those that think that you can cruise on the cheep. I remember that cruising on my 44 footer cost me almost as much per month as it did per year on my 26 footer. The cost of the boat is only the beginning. _____Grant.

[DDabs]

I am on schedule to look at the Caliber in Rock Hall, MD on Saturday and Sunday on this week.

I just read a few articles in Blue Water Sailing about batteries and I thought I'd start to ask a few questions regarding a potential energy system aboard the Caliber. Here is what I plan to have on board in terms of what will cost me energy, and how I plan to generate power. Please keep in mind this is my first draft, and I am not the most knowledgeable when it comes to batteries. I am just posting this to start the ball rolling.

As far as electronics and electrics:
-LED lights interior and exterior
-Refrigeration system
-SIMRAD GPS/Chartplotter
-SIMRAD 4G Radar
-SIMRAD autopilot
-SIMRAD depth/speed/wind gauges
-SIMRAD AIS transponder
-ICOM VHF
-ICOM SSB
-Windlass
-Interior fans
-Water pumps
-Stereo

This is a base estimate, and I am fully aware that I cannot begin to put together a system based on estimates; that I actually need solid numbers for knowing how much power I actually need, but the boat has no electronics on board so I am just looking for some guidance. Anything else that will draw power please feel free to add that to the list. Here is what I have thought about so far in terms of power:

With all of these electronics, the only things being run 24/7 are going to be the refrigeration, with the exception of autopilot and electronics during long passages. I assume that on a 24/7 time period using most of my gear, the loads could get upwards of 200 ah per day? From what I have read, I will need at least three-four times that for a proper setup. The boat has an inverter aboard however I am unsure of the specifications at the moment.

The batteries I was considering were the Power-Tech AGM 12 Volt, 105 amp hours. Six of those? Or am I building too large of a system?

I am planning on a hard-top bimini and a stern mounted arch with enough room for the following:

4 - 140Watt Kyocera Solar Panels, which will give me an estimated average of around 200 ah per day
-Charge controller of some kind?

Is this enough to run my refrigeration and electronic loads, as well as keep the batteries topped off? Or would it be wise to consider more solar and/or a wind generator?

Again, I am just killing time in Sarasota before I go look at this boat, so I thought I'd just start posting some ideas for the power system aboard so I can start building from there.

David

[mitiempo]

630 AH for a house bank isn't too much. More would be better if you have the room. The larger the bank the less it will be drawn down and that will extend battery life. Personally I would use flooded batteries - 6 volt golf carts in series/parallel. 6 will give you about 675 AH and if you can fit 8 you would have 900 AH. Golf cart batteries are the most durable type as they have thicker plates than any normal 12 volt battery. They have a footprint similar to a group 24, slightly wider and a bit shorter but are taller at just over 11". They are also available in AGM. An upgrade of the alternator to a larger one with an external 3 stage regulator with temp sensors for the alt and the batteries should be added as well.

As far as solar 4 140 watt panels might be a tight fit. If they do fit your daily estimate is slightly high but might be achievable on a perfect sunny day as long as the panels aren't shadowed at all. The only type of controller you should look at is an MPPT from a respected company such as Morningstar, Outback, or Blue Sky.

Ideally you will not be using 200AH per 24 hours. The less you consume the more attainable the replenishment will be.

[nofacey]

Hey mitiempo - I'm looking at much the same solar panel set up as DDabs.....are your comments re: output for BC or the tropics?

[mitiempo]

Originally Posted by nofacey

Hey mitiempo - I'm looking at much the same solar panel set up as DDabs.....are your comments re: output for BC or the tropics?

I have used the premise that the daily AH is approximately equal to 5 hours at full output. In reality of course this is spread over more hours and tapers to much lower output in the morning and afternoon/evening. There should be a greater output in a southern climate but panel orientation is one factor that will affect output. Also a hot panel will produce less current than one that is cooler. If DDabs is expecting to have to replace 200AH per day I think a conservative estimate is better than an optimistic one. If the daily output in the tropics equals 6 hours at full output it will be a welcome bonus.

[TacomaSailor]

We had four 125 watt solar panels and 625 amp hours of batteries while cruising in the Sea of Cortez (18degrees N to 29N). We had all the electrical loads you mention plus a Spectra Water Maker that used about 18 - 30 amp hours per day. I was also a net controller on several HAM and SSB radio nets and used my ICOM 710RT radio for three hours a day (10 or so amp hours).

It was a rare day when the batteries were not fully charged by 1 PM and they were never below full charge by 3 PM. During the winter, when it would be cloudy for a couple days, we would manage our electrical loads a bit.

We NEVER, in almost four years of cruising as described above, had to run the diesel to charge the batteries. Our Link2000 battery monitor never showed the battery state to be more than -125 amp/hours which is a discharge state of about 25% in our system (battery bank was at 75% of capacity) during periods of cloudy weather.

Normally the battery bank would not get below -50 amp hours (about 8% discharged).

Your proposed arrangement seems perfectly adequate. More battery storage is always nice but it means carrying more weight and spending more money upfront and the Caliber 40 lazerette starts to feel pretty crowded with just my six T105 batteries in two boxes.

We ran the watermaker in the afternoon after the batteries were fully charged. We would pull the cold plate down to about 15 degrees F while the solar panels were making over 20 amps. Then, in the late afternoon, when the solar panels were making less than 8 amps, and at night when there was no solar power, the only electrical loads was the reefer compressor (4.2 amps for about six hours a night or 25 amp hours during 6PM to 9 AM) and what ever house lights we needed (LEDs eliminate that consideration today) and the power needed to run the computer or the DVD/TV.

I have hundreds more thoughts about this issue so either PM me or ask questions here. My brother, who cruised on a Tartan 42 with 100% solar power, and my close friend who cruised with a family on a Norseman 447 spent many years experimenting with solar and energy management in the tropics.

My web site reports energy production as measured in La Paz (24 N) but I can assure you that the 500 watts of year 2000 Kyocera panels produced more than 30 amps at 14.2V for several hours a day and more than 20 amps at 14 V for about eight hours a day in the summer and about 70% that during the winter.

[DDabs]

Mitempo, thanks for the information. I assumed that 200ah per day would be during long ocean passages where the autopilot and electronics would be running constantly as well as the refrigeration and any other draws. Most of the time the vessel will be most likely not be using 200ah per day, but I would like to be sure that I have enough to run constant refrigeration.

[DDabs]

Tacoma,

Awesome, good to know I'm getting some of this right, ha!