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Old 30-12-2013, 13:25   #46
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Re: Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

I have to say I know that I'm not nearly as much of a sailor as anyone on this board, but I really appreciate all of the information I've gotten so far, and everyone putting up with some of my questions, however stupid some may be!
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Old 30-12-2013, 13:38   #47
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Re: Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

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Originally Posted by TacomaSailor View Post
"

"I would not have run a 100 feet of cable, I would have a dedicated battery for the windlass mounted in my chain locker and simply moved the battery to the charging station when it needed a charge."

What kind of easily portable battery can deliver 100 amps at 12.5V for two minutes and not suffer damage?

The Caliber 40 forward locker is very wet when sailing into a head sea - how do you ensure that battery stays dry?

"Planning my friend, planning."

Planning is a big part of the time I quote - does your 3-hour radar install include the planning time?

When I quote times I include all the research to find the correct product, deal with the purchase, plan the install, and document the results. For example:

my new autopilot and course computer install included:

- 5 hours talking to Raymarine, local dealers, local installers, Raymarine technical support to determine if the new equipment would be compatible with the existing equipment

- 2 hours trying to find the best deal on the equipment

- 2 hours dealing with Defender shipping problems due to a split order

- 2 hours dealing with a return to Defender when the fuse holder on the original course computer failed

That is 11 hours of effort that did not involve any mechanical work

OreganWaterman - how do you avoid all that time consuming thinking, talking, and planning?
Since I do not have an electric windlass, I am not sure on the battery I would use. If it was so large I couldn't move it to my charging station, I would move the charging station (a battery charger in this case) to it. This would involve an extension cord I suppose but heck, every one has those. Cheap.
Why is your forward locker so wet? Is it open to the sea?

As to where I mounted my radar, planning was "it goes right there" and I mounted it. I tend not to over think anything.

As to your plotter/autopilot...
This is a good example actually.
If it took five hours for the maker/installers/dealers to come up with answers to their own product/services, I would find another maker. Seems a whole lot of chef's but no cooks, get me?
If Defender shipped a split order and screwed it up, I would not deal with Defender. If they shipped me something that failed so quickly, I would not be dealing with Defender. or the maker of that widget, period.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, must trust and pay some one else to do it.
Can you guess who is who?
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Old 30-12-2013, 13:40   #48
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Re: Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

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Originally Posted by DDabs View Post
I have to say I know that I'm not nearly as much of a sailor as anyone on this board, but I really appreciate all of the information I've gotten so far, and everyone putting up with some of my questions, however stupid some may be!
I have lurked here forever and not once have I seen a stupid question!
Stupid answers...maybe...
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Old 30-12-2013, 13:58   #49
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Re: Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

I'm jumping in a little late. Don't be concerned at all with the electronics; assume they have zero value on either boat. A simple high end ipad with a gps antenna will replace any chartplotter over 3 years old and do a much better job.

Our 2001 Oyster came loaded with every electronic gadget possible to buy in 2001 including two of nearly everything, iridium phones, chartplotter, all high end stuff at the time..... now, everything is obsolite and no longer supported by the manufacturer, or soon to break. The chartplotter, the maps are way too expensive and and obsolite, so now We use two ipads and a laptop with nobeltec software. VHF replaced. Wind speed indicator didn't work, won't replace. The radar is the only piece of equipment that still works and does a good job.

So forget about the electronics... assume zero value.
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Old 30-12-2013, 14:04   #50
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Re: Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

Has anyone here, while boat shopping, had any luck into sweet-talking/bribing the broker or selling into providing a copy of a previous survey for a boat? If it's not too many years old, it might be a useful read, and comparing the issues raised in a previous survey with the present condition of the boat might make for an interesting insight into how the current owner has cared for the boat? It might also be an interesting starting point for a self-survey or the new purchase survey.
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Old 30-12-2013, 14:37   #51
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Re: Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

Kenomac,
I am aware of how fast electronics degrade, and will be taking at least two iPads on board. However, I would like to get a complete system done since I will be cruising this boat extensively for an unexpected period of my life. I am in a situation to where I might end up living aboard indefinitely. I realize that at some point electronics will need to be replaced, but at the starting point, I would like a full system of gear to get me started. This includes a hardwired chartplotter/GPS, radar, AIS, etc. If I have the means to install that kind of gear, my thinking is to have it rather than not. I will also have tablets, paper charts, etc. I am trying not to overlook anything that is possible.

rgscpat, good point, I have not asked the broker about this, however I also have not gotten to the point of doing my own survey on the vessel yet. The one thing that keeps coming back to me regarding the LRC in Rock Hall, Maryland, is that it is a 1999, the owner bought it with intent to cruise, never did, and barely sailed it on the Chesapeake. It is a practically unused boat ready to be molded in my design. This excites me beyond belief. Coming from modifying cars, I would much rather buy an OEM car and modify it to my liking rather than buy a car with exisiting modifications.
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Old 30-12-2013, 14:45   #52
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Re: Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

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I have lurked here forever and not once have I seen a stupid question!
Stupid answers...maybe...
Lol - true dat .
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Old 30-12-2013, 14:52   #53
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Re: Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

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Originally Posted by rgscpat View Post
Has anyone here, while boat shopping, had any luck into sweet-talking/bribing the broker or selling into providing a copy of a previous survey for a boat? If it's not too many years old, it might be a useful read, and comparing the issues raised in a previous survey with the present condition of the boat might make for an interesting insight into how the current owner has cared for the boat? It might also be an interesting starting point for a self-survey or the new purchase survey.
Over here I have found that if yer ask then a fair chance that one (or more or varying vintages!) would be made available. IMO invaluable - even the very old ones!

Of course of no use for judging the current condition, but very useful for being able to judge the TLC that has gone into her over many years (and owners?) as well being able to zoom in on past problems to inspect the fix (on both the boat in question and others).
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Old 30-12-2013, 15:10   #54
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Re: Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

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Oregon Waterman,

$20k doesn't seem like too unrealistic of a budget considering I am not handy at all (yet). The things you have described yourself doing to your boat, I would never be able to do myself, and would absolutely have to hire someone else do the labor. I wish I had the skill set to be able to do some of those things myself, and in time spent aboard I'm sure that I will learn, but when it comes to installing major systems, I want it done right and correctly.

You can buy pieces and parts at various retailers (WM, Jamestown, whatever), but it sounds like you would be better-served to get with one of your local marine electronics specialists/installation companies.

After I ran our current boat for two years... and developed a feel for what we really needed, wanted, what would be nice to have...

We did a "market survey" of companies like that in our area. Three bubbled to the top. I then essentially sent each an RFP describing what I thought I wanted, needed, etc... along with a notional timeline and so forth. All three presented very credible options for a full suite of largely redundant systems. The company I selected was the one who answered question more completely, and volunteered ideas that I might not have thought about.

They were neither most nor least expensive. Their prices for components was pretty much the same as from WM, sometimes better, sometimes even as if on sale... Their installation charges were about $100/hour for labor, and they told me right up front some of the work (mostly fishing cables) requires two people. They also offered me the chance to be the second person, so that would reduce the labor costs.

They have been there for me when I couldn't figure out one of the set-up routines (and I'm fairly competent in this field); they talked me through it on the phone. They helped when I encountered a bug in one of the systems; turned out to be a known issue due for fix in the next software release, easy. They also were especially helpful troubleshooting when our autopilot went haywire (turned out to be a broken rudder reference)... and that time I was the second person, fishing new cables...

I could have done (am competent to do) the pieces and parts routine, set-up and all, but... I wanted it done right, reasonably quickly, and didn't have the time myself... and there was some fiberglass work involved (filling in places where previous equipment lived, re-cutting, etc.) and I dunno squat about fiberglass.

The results have been very, very worth the money.

Some of the components, of course, are no longer latest and greatest... and probably whatever is on whatever boat you're looking at will have been effectively obsolete for a while. May still work very well, though, so maybe not worth much in the purchase price but still valuable as working equipment until you decide to change.

-Chris
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Old 30-12-2013, 15:24   #55
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Re: Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

DDABS, before you spend money on a wind generator, you might want to search out the video of the young Australian boy that did a nonstop around the world trip. In one scene he is down below(and not very happy) and there is this horrible howling in the background. It took a minute to realize that it was the wind generator going up and down as the gusts hit. It was enough to make a man crazy(maybe I have a head start) to listen to that for days on end. He also had 2 solar panels, one of which was ruined by a wave. The idea of solar panels on top of a rigid Bimini is good, but you will get considerably less wattage out of them due to the shade of the main. At least you wont be tripping over them or having to work around them. The video also soured me on single line reefing of the main. It leaves all of the extra sail hanging under the boom to cut visibility and flap around, which has to be hard on stitching. This may start arguments from some of the advocates, but I have spent up to 8 days straight with reefs tied in, and I think that having the foot loose for that time would have done damage. Maybe someone can post a link to the boy named Martin that went RTW. Just another 2 cents worth to think about. Good Luck. _____Grant.
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Old 30-12-2013, 15:27   #56
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Re: Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

This is a great thread and provides some real life practical alternatives for cruisers.

The comments about old electronics being obsolete are true BUT...

The 10 to 19 year old electronics on our boat are all working very well - they may be obsolete but just 'cause they are old does not mean they are worthless.

If I could buy a 1994 Caliber 40 with old obsolete electronics that still worked and then update them at my leisure I would feel that I am achieving a better cruising boat than buying a bare naked newer boat and having to update it with little knowledge or experience about what I really need.

Electronic and electrical Life Experience on Mirador

- solar panels 14 years old (yo) & working perfectly
- Trace C-40 solar controller 14 yo & working perfectly
- Freedom 2kw inverter/charger 19 yo & working perfectly
- Link2000R charge monitor and controller 19 yo monitors OK but controller failed in 2004
- Xantrex battery controller 10 yo & working OK
- Raymarine VHF 14 yo & working perfectly
- Raymarine VHF 19 yo & working perfectly
- Raymarine Loudhailer and foghorn 14 yo & working perfectly
- ICOM 710RT SSB/Ham radio 14 yo & working perfectly
- Pactor III modem 14 yo & working perfectly
- Raytheon R20XX radar 19 yo & working perfectly
- Raymarine autopilot Course computer working OK but replaced at 18 years
- Raymarine Linear Drive autopilot actuator - 19 yo & working perfectly
- Raymarine ST60 autopilot Control head - 19 yo & working perfectly
- Raymarine Gryorate transducer (heading monitor) 16 yo & working perfectly
- Raymarine ST 60 wind instrument - 19 yo & working perfectly
- Raymarine ST 60 depthsounder - 19 yo & working perfectly
- Raymarine ST 60 knotmeter - died after 8 years
- Raymarine ST 60 Tridata meter (knots, depth, course) 12 yo & working perfectly
- XM receiver 12 yo and working perfectly
- Garmin GPSs (five) vary in age from 18 to 8 years and all work perfectly
- Panasonic 750 watt microwave 19 yo & working perfectly
- Propane solenoid first failed at 8 years 2nd still working after 11 years
- Xintrex propane sensor first failed at 12 years 2nd still working after 7 years
- Xintrex CO sensor - failed at 12 years
- cabin lights - they all still work but are tarnished 1/2 have been replaced with newer fixtures
- cabin AC circuits - all still work but all receptacles have been replaced
- overhead fluorescent lights - 16 yo and work perfectly
- windlass motor - failed at 10 years and again at 16 years
- running lights - upgraded to Series 40 in 1995 and still working
- masthead strobe light - 14 yo and working perfectly
- spreader lights - 14 yo and working perfectly
- foredeck light - 14 yo and working perfectly
I know you want new and shiny but the old stuff, if well cared for, is still reliable and usable and would allow you much more time to get to know your boat, your cruising style, and how much work you can do and want to do.
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Old 30-12-2013, 15:32   #57
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Re: Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

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Originally Posted by Oregon Waterman View Post
Since I do not have an electric windlass, I am not sure on the battery I would use. If it was so large I couldn't move it to my charging station, I would move the charging station (a battery charger in this case) to it. This would involve an extension cord I suppose but heck, every one has those. Cheap.

Why is your forward locker so wet? Is it open to the sea?



As to where I mounted my radar, planning was "it goes right there" and I mounted it. I tend not to over think anything.



As to your plotter/autopilot...

This is a good example actually.

If it took five hours for the maker/installers/dealers to come up with answers to their own product/services, I would find another maker. Seems a whole lot of chef's but no cooks, get me?

If Defender shipped a split order and screwed it up, I would not deal with Defender. If they shipped me something that failed so quickly, I would not be dealing with Defender. or the maker of that widget, period.



Those who can, do. Those who can't, must trust and pay some one else to do it.

Can you guess who is who?

Not deal with defender ? Yah right. That whole post reeks of novice.
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Old 30-12-2013, 15:43   #58
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Re: Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

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Originally Posted by ranger42c View Post
You can buy pieces and parts at various retailers (WM, Jamestown, whatever), but it sounds like you would be better-served to get with one of your local marine electronics specialists/installation companies.
With boats, when you can do pretty much everything (or at least are able and willing to give most things a go!) it is very easy to fall into the trap of doing everything yourself - the price paid being time. One job no problem, 27 jobs another matter.......
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Old 30-12-2013, 15:47   #59
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Re: Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

The problem with the fuse holder on the course computer had nothing to do with Defender - it was a Raymarine problem and Defender quickly and freely solved it for me.

The split order was also a Raymarine problem - I wanted a new 30 amp Linear Drive motor and Raymarine could not get it shipped 10 miles to Defender

I can not image how you think that spending five hours to determine if my very complex 1995 electronics and navigation package would work with new 2013 electronics could be done in any less time. My nav system has 12 components (all from Autohelm/Raymarine) and it took a lot of time to determine what needed to be updated and what could be retained.

Even after all the consultation - I still needed to buy one more obscure and esoteric part to make the stuff work.

And... Raymarine changed the size of the cutout for the new AP70 control head and it would not fit in the cockpit nav panel where the old ST60 control head sat. So - I had to spend 3 hours trying to fit the old and new together.

Then... I had to run ONE MORE cable up a 1" stainless steering pedestal mount that already contained one too many cables.

That is all very time consuming but I admit I may be slow, tedious, and I know I am old!

I will stand by my usual statement about boat projects:

They take twice as long and cost twice as much as your initial wildass guess.
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Old 30-12-2013, 15:50   #60
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Re: Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

Re: Tankage:
Diesel- you dont need too much... just means your diesel is going to get old in the tank.
Water.. the more the better unless you're getting water maker, then less is fine.
I inspected (1hour) a Caliber 40 in the year 2000 for some friends. I was a bit unimpressed... mostly just because when I pounded on the hull sides in the V berth area it rattled like a cheap powerboat. Probably no worse than a Bene, Catalina or other production boats.. but isnt it supposed to be better?
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