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Old 30-12-2013, 04:43   #31
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Re: Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

The LRC you're looking at in MD is listed with Salt. I've had very good luck both buying and selling with them. I'm not affiliated with them, just a satisfied customer. I'm sure Tom or Connie would send you any additional photos you want and would discuss the boat's condition fairly candidly if you asked.
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Old 30-12-2013, 06:35   #32
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Re: Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

Another consideration:

Don't go out and spend a ton of money setting up the ultimate cruising boat before you go cruising. You plan sounds like more moderate island hopping type cruising for the first few years.

Maybe plan on 6-12 months in Florida before the Caribean to work out the bugs. Put together your initial estimate for what you think you need but only get the boat to safe and modestly comfortable. Then head out with the rest of the upgrade money set aside.

What we found was a lot of the things we thought we needed fell to the bottom of the list once we got out there and others we never thought of or were low priority moved up.
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Old 30-12-2013, 10:03   #33
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Re: Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

OregonWaterMan: "I installed radar/radio/antennae/chartplotter and all cabling and wires in three hours on my boat. Most was plug and play with only two new leads and a short trip up the mast."

??

I can't go up my mast to the spreaders and come back down in less than 15 minutes and I have steps!

So you were able to:

get your tools out
rig your climbing gear
haul yourself up the mast
measure, mark, drill the radar mounting holes
haul the radar mount up the mast
install the mount
haul the radar up the mast
install the radar
measure, mark, drill the radar guard
haul the guard up the mast
install the radar guard
measure, mark, and drill the hole in the mast for the radar cable
pull the radar cable thru the mast
hookup the cable
climb to the mast head
measure, mark, install the VHF antenna
pull the VHF cable thru the mast
pull radar cable from mast base to nav station
pull VHF cable from mast base to nav station
measure, mark, drill mounts for chartplotter/display
measure, mark, drill/cut opening for VHF
wire power to equipment thru a circuit breaker
...

that is about 23 tasks and accounts for only a portion of the work needed

I am impressed you can do each one of those things in less than eight minutes apiece!

Is that three hours elapsed time or man-hours?

I know that when I installed my Raytheon radar and VHF in 1995 it took me and the dealers shop manager about 30 hours labor to install the radar and we were both pretty experienced with that kind of work.

Just trying to find a way to route cables from the mast base to the nav station required several hours. Then there were two bulkheads and a bunch of stringers to drill thru and about 40 cable hangers to install in very awkard locations - another several hours.

And... we had to find a way to secure the radar and VHF cable inside the mast to keep it from slapping against the mast. That was a major project and eventually required removal of the mast and installation of 1" PVC tubing up the mast. The mast in a Caliber 40 passes thru the owners sleeping cabin right where the owners head rests at night. The least little halyard or wire slap inside the mast will make sleep impossible!

Three hours is less than 10% of the time it required a professional boat mechanic and I to do the same job (he was working on a "no cost" contract since the installation was part of the purchase price of the boat).

I guess things have gotten a lot easier in the last few years!
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Old 30-12-2013, 10:27   #34
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Re: Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

Valhalla360 offers the best advice.

Use the boat (whichever you purchase) as is for at least one full sailing/cruising season. Then you can more accurately, and cheaply, determine what equipment you really need.

We purchased our brand new Caliber 40 in early spring 1995 and did a lot of sailing and cruising during the next four years. We then started our major "long distance cruising" upgrades in spring of 1999 and finished them in the summer of 2000 when we took off for Mexico.

The "must have" cruising items I installed during the spring of 1995 when we first owned Mirador were:

good refrigeration system
big windlass - a "shallow" Puget Sound anchorage is 35 feet
Two 8-D gel cell batteries
A BIG diesel heater for the boat interior because we did a lot of winter sailing
A solid autopilot because I single handed much of the time
Sophisticated battery/charger controller
A better mainsail reefing system

Everything else was installed after we had three years of experience with the boat.

Even with that scheme - I ended up spending over $5,000 and a lot of hours installing equipment I have never needed or used.

Another issue I have not heard you mention is the cost of safety equipment:

- life raft
- flares
- fire control
- storm sails
- drogue
- sea anchor

Are you thinking about needing any of that stuff and does either boat include any of it? None of those parts wear but do need periodic inspection and/or certification.
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Old 30-12-2013, 10:54   #35
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Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

Tacoma,

I most likely will be mounting the radar on the custom arch that would have to be built for the boat. Not sure if that would cut down on install since wiring the mast wouldn't be necessary.

Also, I have included a proper life raft into my outfit budget, most likely a 4-person SeaMaster.

As far as sea anchor, sails, etc., I will just have to see after survey what the boat needs, I do not know any of that info at this time.
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Old 30-12-2013, 11:00   #36
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Re: Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

The OP should get acquainted with Yachtworld. There's an Caliber 40 LRC in Annapolis right now in his price range with SSB, Windlass, Refer, etc.

Caliber boats for sale - www.yachtworld.com
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Old 30-12-2013, 11:05   #37
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Re: Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

Bash, I'm very well acquainted with Yachtworld. Either I seem to have scanned over that or it just recently went on the market.
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Old 30-12-2013, 11:09   #38
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Re: Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

Quote:
Originally Posted by DDabs View Post
Either I seem to have scanned over that or it just recently went on the market.
It doesn't seem a boat that will last long, even on today's market.
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Old 30-12-2013, 11:27   #39
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Re: Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash View Post
It doesn't seem a boat that will last long, even on today's market.

Yeah, that's the same year as the barebones LRC and already has an SSB, windlass, and probably more electronics. If it is still available when I fly to Maryland, I will have to check it out.
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Old 30-12-2013, 11:37   #40
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Re: Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

Quote:
Originally Posted by TacomaSailor View Post
OregonWaterMan: "I installed radar/radio/antennae/chartplotter and all cabling and wires in three hours on my boat. Most was plug and play with only two new leads and a short trip up the mast."


I guess things have gotten a lot easier in the last few years!
Planning my friend, planning.
And being a bit younger helps.
But visualizing what needs to be done and in what steps is what gets one out of the time consuming head scratching/change in plans during installs or re-fits. I took longer installing my compass than I did doing the radio because I had no plan for the compass! I also use an electric winch to get up the mast, got the idea from a guy who used his electric windlass to get up his. It's a Borg Warner and slips off my truck and is secured to pad eyes on the cabin roof. 30 foot remote cable with jumpers to a battery. Clip in, add a safety line and up I go.
Work smart not hard.
Those of us with tight budgets have to think way outside the box. That and I trust no one, absolutely no one to work on my boat. The work will be inferior to what I can do and the monies asked outrageous. Posts such as this one where the sailor is tossing about 20 grand for electronics just blow my mind.
Your post about the windlass, I admit to being blown away at the cost. I thought no f'in way it took that kind of money and time but it did for you. I would not have run a 100 feet of cable, I would have a dedicated battery for the windlass mounted in my chain locker and simply moved the battery to the charging station when it needed a charge. How often would I have to do that?
Just a small thing and perhaps too much work for some but I would have saved 112.50 and labor costs and didn't have to put holes through bulkheads, run 100 feet of cable or buy 4 cable ends.
I get it and while I am not Superman or even slightly a craftsman, it took me four days to:
Remove my 12 foot bowsprit/manual windlass/dorado's and shore power connection from the foredeck. Cut out the rot, remove the Samson post.
Grafted in sisters, graft in new posts, replace the ply, glass in 1 inch of mat*, fair, primer, paint, non skid.
Install the bowsprit/windlass/forestay/staysail stay/Sampson posts.
About 40 hours from start to hank on and go sailing.
Is the work Bristol? Pretty close, it matches the boat which is a 1971 after all.
Planning my friend, no head scratching, no trips to the marine store.

With the newer electronics, buying units that work together right out of the box makes it very easy to plug and play if you know exactly what you need.
I bought mine used, right off of his boat and into mine.

*I get epoxy resin/fiberglass cheap, who doesn't like to over-build?
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Old 30-12-2013, 11:44   #41
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Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

Oregon Waterman,

$20k doesn't seem like too unrealistic of a budget considering I am not handy at all (yet). The things you have described yourself doing to your boat, I would never be able to do myself, and would absolutely have to hire someone else do the labor. I wish I had the skill set to be able to do some of those things myself, and in time spent aboard I'm sure that I will learn, but when it comes to installing major systems, I want it done right and correctly.
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Old 30-12-2013, 12:21   #42
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Re: Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

the LRC has the advantage of filling up once before you leave and not having to worry about dirty fuel at some remote site. for the most part i found the calibers to be well constructed and easy to maintain. the construction became better on more recent boats. i would rather buy a newer simple model in good condition and then add what you need like autopilot and batteries and solar etc. good luck.
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Old 30-12-2013, 13:07   #43
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Re: Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

"the LRC has the advantage of filling up once before you leave and not having to worry about dirty fuel at some remote site"

If you motor 500 miles a year (way more than do we) then a 55 gallon tank is plenty.

Why carry 700 pounds of extra weight?
The biggest problem with old diesel is that it collects water and allows biologics to grow in the tanks. Why carry 100 gallons of fuel around for a couple of years until you might need it?

The 40LRC is a fine boat and I have helped outfit one and sailed a bit on two others. But - you do give up a LOT of storage for that extra tankage.

To me that is a poor tradeoff!

"I most likely will be mounting the radar on the custom arch that would have to be built for the boat. Not sure if that would cut down on install since wiring the mast wouldn't be necessary."

Atlantic Towers makes a beautiful arch for the Caliber 40. Ours is 14 years old and was the fifth one made by Atlantic Towers.

IF you put the radar on the arch - where will the solar panels go?
Where will you put the wind generator if the radar is on the arch? Will the wind generator block a fair amount of radar coverage?

"I would not have run a 100 feet of cable, I would have a dedicated battery for the windlass mounted in my chain locker and simply moved the battery to the charging station when it needed a charge."

What kind of easily portable battery can deliver 100 amps at 12.5V for two minutes and not suffer damage?

The Caliber 40 forward locker is very wet when sailing into a head sea - how do you ensure that battery stays dry?

"Planning my friend, planning."

Planning is a big part of the time I quote - does your 3-hour radar install include the planning time?

When I quote times I include all the research to find the correct product, deal with the purchase, plan the install, and document the results. For example:

my new autopilot and course computer install included:

- 5 hours talking to Raymarine, local dealers, local installers, Raymarine technical support to determine if the new equipment would be compatible with the existing equipment

- 2 hours trying to find the best deal on the equipment

- 2 hours dealing with Defender shipping problems due to a split order

- 2 hours dealing with a return to Defender when the fuse holder on the original course computer failed

That is 11 hours of effort that did not involve any mechanical work

OreganWaterman - how do you avoid all that time consuming thinking, talking, and planning?
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Old 30-12-2013, 13:14   #44
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Re: Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

Tacoma, in regards to radar/solar/wind, I was planning on having the radar and the wind gen, as well as davits mounted on the arch. The cockpit would be covered by a hardtop bimini with solar panels mounted on top of that. I will need to do more research and take dimensions to see what size panels will fit on the hardtop without being shaded by mainsail, wind gen, etc. I am not opposed to mounting the radar midmast if it turns out to be a problem for the solar panels. Personally, I do not like the look of mounting solar panels to the arch as they usually have some overhang, and in strong winds it seems like something to consider, when mounted to a hardtop bimini they would sit flush and the top would be securely mounted the same as the arch. Thoughts?
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Old 30-12-2013, 13:19   #45
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Re: Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

Quote:
Originally Posted by DDabs View Post
Oregon Waterman,

$20k doesn't seem like too unrealistic of a budget considering I am not handy at all (yet). The things you have described yourself doing to your boat, I would never be able to do myself, and would absolutely have to hire someone else do the labor. I wish I had the skill set to be able to do some of those things myself, and in time spent aboard I'm sure that I will learn, but when it comes to installing major systems, I want it done right and correctly.
Buy a boat and you will become handy, trust me! And my advice is to buy the boat with the tankage. Having that much water/fuel is very handy too.
I have an owner built boat and some how, it has almost 140 gallons of water tankage. No need for a watermaker as that water would last me two months easy. As for fuel, I can get close to 90 gallons, over 100 if I use the two jerry cans. In my little boat, I can motor to Baja from here.
A poster said to buy the boat and then shake it down over a year or so, that's what I would do. Its fun to spend money and get all of these nifty little gadgets that make cruising safe and comfortable but really, what you want and what you will actually need/use are really different.
With money saved, retire early...
Yours is another way of doing it, planning out a budget and all but really, you can do it with much less and much more time spent here reading. I think CF has saved me more than a few dollars, the wisdom of the collective here is G-d like.
We all have different approaches, Tacomasailor and his Mirador are world class and well thought out but not my style. Another poster here has a 26' Contessa that is as ragged as they come, has very little on board but he is very happy in his approach. I am between to the two some where in my thinking.
In the end, read, read and ask questions. Not only will you save money but you will get exactly what you need.
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