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Old 29-01-2014, 04:20   #226
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Re: Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

Meanwhile when do you get this boat??

Tangents aside this has been a great thread with alot of good advice, and inquiring minds want to know how it is going
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Old 29-01-2014, 08:10   #227
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Re: Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

Survey is Feb 17th. I will keep the thread updated
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Old 29-01-2014, 08:48   #228
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Re: Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

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Originally Posted by DDabs View Post
Survey is Feb 17th. I will keep the thread updated
Bring a snow shovel, lol. I have 5" of snow on my boat as I type this lol (disclaimer: I'm actually a bit down the bay in VA)

I did not read the entire thread, but I have a few suggestions. If they are redundant or out of date, just ignore them.

First, DON'T do any major work in Annapolis other than what you absolutely have to do to get underway. While the quality of work in Annapolis is superb at most yards, you pay dearly for the privilege.

As far as all the goodies you are contemplating adding, just wait. Wait until you've lived with the boat and operated it a good long while. Wait until you've been on lots of other people's boats. Wait until you've found a yard that you trust and have good communication with. Wait until you have a very good understanding of how all the pieces fit together, and how you're going to use the boat. Wait until you are very familiar with all the existing equipment on the boat and whether you want to replace some of it in the process, like the wind instruments. The longer you wait the more educated you'll be, the better you'll know your boat, and the more comfortable you'll be with the people doing the work, the less you will likely end up spending, and the better your overall results will be.

As far as the survey goes, definitely look over the surveyor's shoulder every step of the way, and barrage him/her with questions. If they are not a bit annoyed with you by half-way through the survey, you're not doing it right, lol. You'll learn a tremendous amount in the process, including the depth of what the surveyor knows and the extent of their investigation. Keep in mind that everything that you uncover that departs from the listed/stated condition of the boat is fodder for post-survey negotiations on the final price. Single side band does not work? That's grounds for deducting its replacement cost (since no one is going to diagnose the problem and estimate the actual cost of repair before the sale).

Keep in mind that your surveyor is spending 8 hours on your boat, and that there are numerous things that they will not uncover simply out of time constraints or lack of access. It's just a fact of life. Also, the surveyor's job is to check the condition of the boat, not to diagnose the specific problem of something that does not work. For example, they might note that the head's mechanicals leak when it's pumped. It could be a loose nut, or the head might need a complete rebuild. Again all these things are grounds for price negotiation after the survey. In the above example, I would simply factor the price of a replacement head into my revised offer price. You can be a bit aggressive at this point since everyone is invested in staying at the table. Haggle.
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Old 29-01-2014, 08:59   #229
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Re: Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

Suijin, awesome info, thanks alot.
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Old 29-01-2014, 11:05   #230
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Re: Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

Great boat.

I have been very disappointed in my last two surveys because an extraordinary amount of the time seems to be spent on trivial "gotchas" - like whether there are two hose clamps on every thru-hull. This is a $3 fix and while I always put on two clamps -- if one clamp has held for 20 years it's not my biggest pre-purchase worry.

So on my next survey (not soon) I'm going to somehow convince the surveyor to first focus on all $1000+ issues. There aren't many of these but unfortunately they are the hardest to check. Because it's hard to be sure, surveyors are understandably nervous about saying much - they don't want to kill the deal or be sued for saying something's OK that turn out bad. Safer to focus on hose clamps. Here are my expensive worries in rough order of big to small:

Hull structure especially damage from grounding, collision, or travel lift accidents.
Tanks
Deck rot and leaks
chain plates
Engine
Shaft, strut, cutlass
Steering system
Toe rail and stanchions
Wiring - especially AC related. Corrosion at terminals.
Keel bolts
standing rigging
Hatch and port leaks (only if it needs replacement not gaskets)
Mast (bent, mast step, spreaders, and corrosion at fasteners)
Furlers

As an aside, a 25 year old engine with low hours would be a big concern to me. Diesels die of disuse not use. Or is this a repower?

I'd also focus on other things that get old without being used. Hoses and hatch gaskets are examples. I'd just replace all.

Don't get me wrong. A lightly used old boat is better than a heavily used old boat - but it's still an old boat.
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Old 29-01-2014, 11:12   #231
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Re: Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

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Originally Posted by CarlF View Post
Great boat.

I have been very disappointed in my last two surveys because an extraordinary amount of the time seems to be spent on trivial "gotchas" - like whether there are two hose clamps on every thru-hull. This is a $3 fix and while I always put on two clamps -- if one clamp has held for 20 years it's not my biggest pre-purchase worry.

So on my next survey (not soon) I'm going to somehow convince the surveyor to first focus on all $1000+ issues. There aren't many of these and unfortunately they are the hardest to check. Because it's hard to be sure, surveyors are understandably nervous about saying much - they don't want to kill the deal or be sued for saying something's OK that turn out bad. Safer to focus on hose clamps. Here are my expensive worries in rough order of big to small:

Hull structure especially damage from grounding or travel lift accidents.
Tanks
Deck rot and leaks
chain plates
Engine
Shaft, strut, cutlass
Steering system
Toe rail and stanchions
Wiring - especially AC related. Corrosion at terminals.
Keel bolts
standing rigging
Hatch and port leaks (only if it needs replacement not gaskets)
Mast (bent, mast step, spreaders, and corrosion at fasteners)
Furlers

As an aside, a 25 year old engine with low hours would be a big concern to me. Diesels die of disuse not use. Or is this a repower?

I'd also focus on other things that get old without being used. Hoses and hatch gaskets are examples. I'd just replace all.

Don't get me wrong. A lightly used old boat is better than a heavily used old boat - but it's still an old boat.
It does seem like they spend an extraordinary amount of time on boat inventory/trivial matters that you could identify yourself. Then again, if a $3 part will save you from sinking later on, and you might not have seen it yourself, maybe it has SOME value.
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Old 29-01-2014, 12:26   #232
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Re: Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

Carl, the boat is 15 years old, not 25. The engine was maintained and run and the oil changed routinely. I'm not that worried about the engine, but who knows.

Thanks for the list of certain things to keep an eye out for- I'll add them to my checklist.

David
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Old 29-01-2014, 15:01   #233
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Re: Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlF View Post

in my last two surveys because an extraordinary amount of the time seems to be spent on trivial "gotchas" - like whether there are two hose clamps on every thru-hull. This is a $3 fix and while I always put on two clamps -- if one clamp has held for 20 years it's not my biggest pre-purchase worry.

So on my next survey (not soon) I'm going to somehow convince the surveyor to first focus on all $1000+ issues. There aren't many of these but unfortunately they are the hardest to check. Because it's hard to be sure, surveyors are understandably nervous about saying much - they don't want to kill the deal or be sued for saying something's OK that turn out bad. Safer to focus on hose clamps.

I suspect surveyors are working to ABYC standards, though, too... so they can't not focus on stuff like clamps, as well... no matter how inexpensive they are to replace.

All the things you list are certainly important, but cost alone probably isn't as much of a factor: a system either works (check) or it doesn't work (check)... or it's damaged (check) or it exhibits no damage (check).

For example, an engine doesn't start; that could be a $3 repair, or a $60K replacement. I suspect the surveyor's primary job is to point out the deficiency (check), and then discussion evolves from there. (Sorry, not a great example; it would be more appropriate to have a mechanical survey done -- i.e., not relying on a marine survey -- when it comes to engines.)

Anyway.... my real point is that the surveyors I've seen don't "concentrate" on squat. They use a checklist, presumably developed from standards like thos ABYC publishes, and they check everything on the list... that they can access.

-Chris
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Old 29-01-2014, 15:33   #234
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Re: Survey

David,
Suijin and CarlF are spot-on! I had a survey done on my previous boat and was not there - they were wrong on several things. I was present when a potential buyer surveyed my boat and while he was better, again working from a checklist and focused too much on $3 little things. ( I really do not care that the lifeline cover is coming off.) Have you seen a completed survey? if not PM me and I will email you one.

About an earlier comment on charts. We have done the ICW 3 times with a 20+ year old chartkit and Skipper Bob's. The buoys may be moved slightly and/or renumbered but your eyes and depthsounder will fill in the blanks. There are a few places that you do need to pay attention to. A couple places are not obvious where the channel is and it is great when you can follow someone but not a lot of traffic in winter.
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Old 29-01-2014, 15:47   #235
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Re: Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

Ed, I'd love to see a completed survey. My e-mail is DDabney6@gmail.com. As far as paper charts go, I need to buy some charts for the Eastern U.S./ICW. Should I buy actual full-blown charts or can I get away with getting a cruising guide, such as this one:

Intracoastal Waterway Chartbook Norfolk to Miami - 6th Ed.
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Old 01-02-2014, 15:27   #236
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Re: Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

In case it hasn't been mentioned already, we'll chirp in with suggesting your survey includes thermographic imaging of the vessel. Thermogrpahic images will show well-hidden faults/wear/wekanesses or 'history' (repaired crash areas, etc) on the hulls and bulkheads, all potentially VERY major problem areas.

Actually, we're not sure how well thermographic imaging works on the various types of hull materials, but we can say with great confidence that it's brilliant on fiberglass!

Anyway, just sayin...and good luck with your purchase!
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Old 24-07-2014, 15:49   #237
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Re: Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

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Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
Let me just add one small detail...

Since the one carries so much more fuel (undrinkable at best); has her fuel carrying capacity affected either her stores capacity or her water tankage?

For me, the water tankage is EXTREMELY important, and I would depend on sailing, but not on dying of thirst, which may be over-stating the issue, but is where my thoughts are.

It is silly, IMO, if you are not a mechanic, to depend on fuel capacity to get you out of a difficult situation. Too often, clogged fuel filters interrupt motorized travel in sailboats. You must be able to sail the puppy! Our little engines are auxiliaries. Sails are our source of motive power. I've only been a sailor since about 1978, but my experience is that even in very little breeze, only enough to move the boat at less than one knot, you can move, and you bloody well cannot with clogged filters, clogged water intakes, ropes around the prop, and all the bad things that happen to people who depend on motoring alone. The reason for this rant is that I would not want you to think that perceived motoring ability might outweigh water storage resources for cruising, or even food storage...

Ann
Wisdom from Ann. Well put point!

I totally agree with her main point above.
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Old 24-07-2014, 15:57   #238
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Re: Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

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Wisdom from Ann. Well put point!

I totally agree with her main point above.
+2!
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