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Old 11-01-2014, 20:33   #136
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Which one did you buy?

David - give us an update on your boat inspection today.
Ed
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Old 11-01-2014, 22:59   #137
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Re: Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

Update:

I am in love!!! After driving out to some remote boatyard in Rock Hall, we pulled up to "Donna Marie" sitting on the hard, and I just knew. She was just so damn gorgeous!

The boat is in impeccable condition. Like I knew before, the boat has only been sailed a few times on the Chesapeake Bay, and therefore has very low engine hours and everything inside seems brand new. The sails have been taken off and stored every year, and are in great shape. All of the canvas on the boat (would be replaced anyways) is also in great shape and is all stored inside at the moment. The boat looks like it must have when it was done being built in 1999.

As for the cons, which again I already knew, are that it needs some equipment, which I can use to justify my offer when I make it. These are things that should be included on a cruising vessel, i.e., windlass, autopilot, refrigeration. The other electronics, solar panels, etc., I knew that I would be having to add and I am pleased with being able to figure that out on my own.

My father loves the boat as well. The primary competition for this boat is a Beneteau 473, which he absolutely loves because of the creature comforts and overall space compared to the Caliber. It didn't help that on our way home from Annapolis we stopped in Virginia to look at probably the best 473 that is on the market- fully loaded with everything I can imagine.

The 473 is of course, a LOT more money. For some reason, I feel as if we were destined to have this Caliber show up like it did. We have a lot of decision making to do, whether or not it is worth it to buy a boat and outfit it ourselves, or try and make an offer on the 473 and be able to get that much boat with all of the gear for a nice price.

The thing that really stuck with me is learning about how Caliber builds their hulls, and how sturdy they are. Blew my mind. You can really feel the difference compared to the Beneteau, even on a boat that's 7 ft. longer and a few thousand pounds heavier.

In the end, my vote hands down goes to the Caliber. I am ready and willing to devote myself to outfitting this vessel, and there couldn't possibly be a better boat to do it with than the LRC. She is a perfectly manageable vessel for short-handed or solo sailing, yet has enough room to comfortably cruise with family and friends. The build quality is through the roof, and the fact that she was built an hour away from where I grew up is even cooler. I do love all that the Beneteau has to offer, especially the cockpit and transom when cruising in the Caribbean, however I think in the long run, the Caliber will hold it's own better than the 473.
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Old 11-01-2014, 23:01   #138
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Re: Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

Also,

I did not get a chance to view the other LRC in Annapolis, but I am currently on the way back to Sarasota, stopped in New Bern, NC, for the night. Tomorrow morning I plan on hopefully seeing a Caliber 40 here in New Bern that is more expensive but has some equipment already on the vessel. More importantly, the broker has a Caliber himself and I can't wait to hear about what he has to say regarding the boat.
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Old 13-01-2014, 16:41   #139
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Re: Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

I am getting ready to put in an offer on the Caliber, basically offering what I think the boat is worth after I subtract the basic necessities that the boat will need to be considered a proper cruising vessel. This basically just includes an autopilot, windlass and refrigeration.

I have a few questions regarding the autopilot and windlass:
The broker has provided some estimated quotes for installed prices of equipment they could install at a local boatyard. I am currently doing some research on the proposed equipment, but was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on the matter.

Autopilot: Raymarine EV 400 Sail Autopilot w/ Type 2 Linear Drive

Windlass: Lewmar V2 Windlass w/ foot switches

Keep in mind this is for a 40' cutter at approx. 22000 lbs. The boat has a decent bowsprit as well.

David
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Old 13-01-2014, 17:27   #140
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Re: Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

No comment on autopilot, but I'd go a size up on windlass - look for a 1000W motor with a gypsy to suit 3/8" HT chain, matching up with a 55# Rocna - and make sure your installer uses large bore electrical cables sized for a max 3% voltage drop during install.
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Old 13-01-2014, 20:08   #141
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Re: Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

Based on 18 years with a Caliber 40:

The Type 1 linear drive is all the power you need. There has never been a single occasion in lots of pretty serious sailing that I felt the Type 1 did not have enough power. BUT I just upgraded to a Type 2 because it didn't cost much more and I feel better with the extra power (30 amps -vs- 15 amps).

I frequently wished my Maxwell VWC 1200 (max 1200 pound pull at 100 amps) had more power and less speed. My VWC1200 pulls 70 feet per minute when unloaded but doesn't have the necessary power when pulling into big waves and strong wind.

The VWC 2500 has more pulling power (2500 pounds) but less speed. That is a very useful tradeoff.

I can not find a Maxwell V2 so don't know the specs. The V2 seems to refer to a control head for a Maxwell windlass. What is the windlass model number?

Feel free to PM if you want Caliber specific answers or I can answer them here.

The prior comments about cable size are critical. You can not allow more than 3% voltage drop. 30 foot one-way run 13.5V and 100 amps:
3/0 cable 2.8% V drop
2/0 cable 3.4% V drop
1/0 cable 4.4% V drop 13.5V at battery - 12.9V at windlass
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Old 13-01-2014, 20:47   #142
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Re: Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

Quote:
Originally Posted by TacomaSailor View Post
Based on 18 years with a Caliber 40:

The Type 1 linear drive is all the power you need. There has never been a single occasion in lots of pretty serious sailing that I felt the Type 1 did not have enough power. BUT I just upgraded to a Type 2 because it didn't cost much more and I feel better with the extra power (30 amps -vs- 15 amps).

I frequently wished my Maxwell VWC 1200 (max 1200 pound pull at 100 amps) had more power and less speed. My VWC1200 pulls 70 feet per minute when unloaded but doesn't have the necessary power when pulling into big waves and strong wind.

The VWC 2500 has more pulling power (2500 pounds) but less speed. That is a very useful tradeoff.

I can not find a Maxwell V2 so don't know the specs. The V2 seems to refer to a control head for a Maxwell windlass. What is the windlass model number?

Feel free to PM if you want Caliber specific answers or I can answer them here.

The prior comments about cable size are critical. You can not allow more than 3% voltage drop. 30 foot one-way run 13.5V and 100 amps:
3/0 cable 2.8% V drop
2/0 cable 3.4% V drop
1/0 cable 4.4% V drop 13.5V at battery - 12.9V at windlass
The calculator I use arrives at 4/0 for a 30' one way (60' total) run and 100 amp load at 3% drop. 2/0 for a 5% drop at that distance. Of course with the alt at 14.4 or thereabouts 5% drop does give 13.3 volts at the windlass.

AWG by wire length/amps calculator
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Old 13-01-2014, 20:51   #143
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Re: Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

Quote:
Originally Posted by TacomaSailor View Post

I can not find a Maxwell V2 so don't know the specs. The V2 seems to refer to a control head for a Maxwell windlass. What is the windlass model number?
Lewmar V2 - Vertical Windlasses products

Lewemar is pretty optimistic that 700 watts is ok for a boat up to 44' as stated on their site.
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Old 13-01-2014, 21:22   #144
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Re: Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

Lewmar V2 80 amps 700 watts 1433 pounds of pull and 68 fpm at no load

My Maxwell VWC 1200
100 amps 1200 watts 1200 pounds of pull at 79 fpm no load 56:1 gear ratio

My VWC 1200 design is 20 years old but how does Lewmar get 19% more pull from 20% fewer amps with a no load (gear ratio) reduciton of just 14%

What magic occurs?

Watts = power
gear ratio = speed
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Old 13-01-2014, 21:24   #145
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Re: Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

Quote:
Originally Posted by TacomaSailor View Post
Lewmar V2 80 amps 700 watts 1433 pounds of pull and 68 fpm at no load

My Maxwell VWC 1200
100 amps 1200 watts 1200 pounds of pull at 79 fpm no load 56:1 gear ratio

My VWC 1200 design is 20 years old but how does Lewmar get 19% more pull from 20% fewer amps with a no load (gear ratio) reduciton of just 14%

What magic occurs?

Watts = power
gear ratio = speed
There is no magic. I think they exaggerate. Their recommended wire sizes are a joke also.
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Old 13-01-2014, 21:45   #146
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Re: Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

I would do a lot of research BEFORE I agreed to install a Raymarine EV400 course computer in my Caliber 40!

As far as my quick research shows - the EV400 does not have the gyrorate transducer as found in the X-30 Course computer. Here is a quote from Raymarine:

"The SmartPilot X-30 corepack features an integrated rate-gyro processor as standard equipment. The rate gyro, combined with Raymarine’s exclusive AST (Advanced Steering Technology) software algorithms ensure razor-sharp course keeping under any sea conditions. "


We used a standard Autohelm Type 100 course computer from 1995 thru early 1999. That setup, which sounds similar to the EV400, did not include a gyro-rate processor. The course computer was not able to keep Mirador on track when reaching or running in more than 20 knots and more than four foot seas from the stern quarter.

A Caliber 40 will round up very quickly when a largish wave hits the boat from the stern quarter while sailing off the wind. IF you do not counter steer before the bow moves up five degrees the momentum of the rotation will make it very difficult to keep the rotation to less than 25 degrees - which is not so good when flying a chute in 25 knots.

Once the boat starts rotating more than five degrees it would take over 15 degrees helm to bring it back down.

BUT - if you quickly counter steer as soon as the bow move then the boat is easy to handle. I did a lot of carefully watching of how the Autohelm/Raymarine course computer responded to the wind gusts and waves. It would usually be quite slow to respond, even at the max response level, and the bow would move over five degrees before the course computer started moving the wheel.

We added an Autohelm gyro-rate transducer that, when coupled to the Type 100 course computer, will start counter steering as soon as the bow comes off track, course, or apparent wind angle by more than 2 degrees.

Once the gyro-rate transducer was installed - the boat handled wonderfully downwind. We sailed with a 1250 sq foot spinnaker in 25 gusting over 30 knots down wind in five foot seas many times and never had to touch the wheel.

You really need to determine:

1) Will you sail hard off the wind?
2) Does the EV400 have the gryro-rate processor?

PS - this had nothing to do with the power of the Type 1 Linear Drive - once the course computer decided to move the rudder it would go to 20 degrees in a second or less - the course computer was just slow to respond.

PPS - Cecil Lange (naval architect / designer / builder of all the Cape George boats) spent many hours standing under Mirador explaining why all this happened - fat and deep bilges carried way aft (in brief)

PPPS - the gyro-rate transducer is not a fluxgate computer - it is a sensor for rotation not course! Even a good fluxgate compass will need several seconds of movement to send a signal to the course computer that the boat has moved off course. That is too slow in a Caliber 40 off the wind in biggish seas.
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Old 13-01-2014, 22:07   #147
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Wow, that is detailed! I like your style of keeping preventative maintenance on a boat. I ran a bar for a few years, and keeping everything in that place up to snuff- I practically lived at the bar! I like to keep everything running as efficiently as possible, I get very OCD about mechanical systems running in optimum condition.
+1 I consider OCD to be a gift when owning a boat.
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Old 14-01-2014, 10:31   #148
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Re: Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

Tacoma, it seems as though the X-30 isn't made anymore by Raymarine, or at least I can't find it through dealers. The EV-400 seems to be their new top of the line unit, and it says that it has an EV sensor core;

"At the center of every Evolution system is the intelligent EV sensor core, a 9-axis sensor that monitors vessel motion in all three dimensions."

I'm guessing this may be the replacement technology for the X-series corepack? It seems they still make an autopilot system using the older ST-70 style gauge and it uses an X-10 core pack. The EV-400 uses the new p70 control head. I am just assuming that it's their newer system.
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Old 14-01-2014, 10:58   #149
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Re: Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

Thought I might as well post up a few pics of the boat:













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Old 14-01-2014, 10:58   #150
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Re: Outfitting vs. Cruise Ready Dilemma

Wow - how things change!

I spent a great deal of time in March - May 2013 trying to decide which Smartpack to install and how to interface with older equipment... and now everything I know is obsolete!

I retired from being a consultant in the high tech mainframe computer world in 1999 because I was tired of trying to keep up with the increasingly rapid change in technology. I had been in the business for over 30 years at that time and was spending most of my time studying all the new stuff that was coming out every other day.

SO - I decided to retire and go sailing 'cause that stuff does not change very rapidly and I could keep up with technology as I drank my beer and rode by bicycle.

Now the evil computers have invaded my easy going sport.

Seriously - it sounds like the EV-400 is exactly what you need.

Is this your question and discussion on the Raymarine Tech Support forum?

http://raymarine.ning.com/forum/topi...ource=activity

If it is not yours - then you should read it. The EV-400 sounds pretty sophisticated.
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