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Old 22-02-2014, 13:15   #16
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Re: Opinions sought on newish old vs. older boat purchase

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
The Benni first series from the 80's were good boats but are getting harder to find in great condition. They were not built with glued in liners.
Doesn't this suggest that they don't hold us as well as other builders? Or simply, haven't their owners kept them up?
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Old 22-02-2014, 13:17   #17
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Re: Opinions sought on newish old vs. older boat purchase

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Originally Posted by deluxe68 View Post
The newer the B-boat you look at, the more you have to be concerned about the quality of construction.
What makes you say this? Is it the Euro look that's throwing you off?
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Old 22-02-2014, 13:24   #18
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Re: Opinions sought on newish old vs. older boat purchase

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Have you and the Husband sailed on any of the boats you are mentioning.?
But based on your questions on this post and previous post you guys got to go test the boats you're looking to buy or go for the rock bottom end of your budget and find out what you want.

I personally would not trust any French production boat on your budget if you plan to cruise long term or plan to do any substantial passages.
You have the budget range that I call the holy crap what should I chose from budget! That is between 50k and 250k in my mind. At 75k you could either buy a nightmare or your best nightmare. I always shoot for my best nightmare. I ldon't like waking up screaming and sweating over my boat.

Now after my rant here is my recommendation. IMHO plan your cruising life (destination wise) then create a post with your budget and goals in destinations.
1. No we haven't had the opportunity to sail them. Our experience is a Columbia 45, and a few modern Hunters and Jeanneau's. We did like how the Jeanneau's sailed.
2. We don't plan on making long, ocean going passages. We will sail 30-70 mile stretches in the Great Lakes, at least for now.
3. Your comments about buying either a nightmare, or my best nightmare make me want to stay a landlubber. I understand buying someone else's problems, but we're trying to minimize those!
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Old 22-02-2014, 13:31   #19
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Re: Opinions Sought on Newish Old vs. Older Boat Purchase

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Whilst I agree with Satdiver on the money to be spent to get a boat ocean worthy, we don't know where and under what circumstances the OP intends to sail. A large part of the cost involved will depend on how demanding your trips are going to be.
As stated, primarily spent cicumnavigating parts of the Great Lakes. Mostly 4-12 hour sails. If we move to the Southeast U.S., it will be similar passages with a possible trip or two to the Bahamas.
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Personally I had a similar dilemma as the OP's two years ago. I could not live with the cheap feel and limited quality of many production manufacturers and decided to go with a Baltic 38DP. After 30 years she is still a formidable ship. Everything works, no creaking and a real quality feel to everything.

My boat had a full refit in 2005/6, but even so I have had to replace many, many, many things. If a refit was done more than 6 years ago expect to have to replace things, such as electronics or parts of the rigging. Don't underestimate the cost of this. I have already spent more than I paid for the boat (and purchase price was over your budget). But not everyone does things the way I do. All I am saying is that 50k goes before you know it.
We also struggle with the cheap feel factor. However, we can't afford to double the cost of boat with major system repairs and replacement. We'd like to spend most of our time sailing and exploring, not dockside with the tools every summer.
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Old 22-02-2014, 13:45   #20
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Re: Opinions Sought on Newish Old vs. Older Boat Purchase

All of your choices would work for you so nothing wrong with your homework. The early Benni's are really nice boats if kept up and are wicked sailors. You'd have to find one that was really well looked after. Because your going to sail in fresh water I would stay with fresh water boats, the average boat is just so much nicer than salt water boats.
I'm partial to CS boats as well as I've owned them and sailed them offshore but it gets back to finding a real clean one.
Find something that has been well looked after and maintained and you'll enjoy it every time you use it. Because your talking about large lake sailing you could also have a close look at the C&C's.
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Old 22-02-2014, 13:46   #21
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Re: Opinions Sought on Newish Old vs. Older Boat Purchase

Whatever costs you expect. .. double them and the time you think it will take to repair. ... how mechanically inclined are you? Actually it is neglect and lack of use rather than use that causes many problems. ..
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Old 22-02-2014, 13:51   #22
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Re: Opinions sought on newish old vs. older boat purchase

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Originally Posted by JulieMac View Post
1. No we haven't had the opportunity to sail them. Our experience is a Columbia 45, and a few modern Hunters and Jeanneau's. We did like how the Jeanneau's sailed.
2. We don't plan on making long, ocean going passages. We will sail 30-70 mile stretches in the Great Lakes, at least for now.
3. Your comments about buying either a nightmare, or my best nightmare make me want to stay a landlubber. I understand buying someone else's problems, but we're trying to minimize those!
A cruising sailboat is a big collection of different systems held together by a fiberglass hull, and all of these systems are time- and/or mileage-limited in lifespan. A little bit like a helicopter.

So well kept by a careful owner doesn't really mean much unless that owner was very active about replacing systems. New, or just after major refit, are the only kind of boats where you have much assurance that most systems will hold up for some time, and even new boats usually need a lot of work.

The worst cases are older boats which are lovingly polished by their loving owners, but which have been rarely used for years -- these look nice but start to fall apart as soon as you take them to sea. The other worst case is a boat which is 7 to 10 years old and well taken care of, but which has not yet had a big refit. A great number of systems wear out at that age, and when the new owner starts to use such a boat more intensively, they start to fail one after the other. Don't ask me how I know about this second case

So as other posters have suggested, reserve a generous amount of money for repairs and replacements the first year. And a boat which has just had a cost-no-object refit is usually a good deal -- the owner never gets his money back out, but you will benefit from his expenses.

So I agree with posters above to leave a very large reserve for repairs, replacements, and upgrades, more or less depending on the exact boat, complexity of systems, etc. I spent 10's of thousands of dollars on my boat during the first couple of years. That despite the fact that she was only 8 years old, lightly used (only 850 hours on the main engine), well taken care of, etc.
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Old 22-02-2014, 13:53   #23
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Re: Opinions Sought on Newish Old vs. Older Boat Purchase

For coastal cruising I see no problem with the Bene, Jeanneau, Catalina etc. Better deal might be had on less popular boats though, but resale is harder too. Keep in mind you'll likely be able to buy maybe 30% under asking price... depending on the boat etc.
My opinion is once a boat is over maybe...8 years old, it's all about current condition, maintenance, past damage and original build quality. Certain models in the same boat line were built better than others. For instance, the older Beneteaus were super stoutly built.
You should be able to get a nice boat in your price range.
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Old 22-02-2014, 13:58   #24
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Re: Opinions Sought on Newish Old vs. Older Boat Purchase

older boat comes down to...do you like the hull and do you like the configuration. by the time you are done is gonna be a different boat anyway......

by the way... the repairs need not cost the prices many seem to think they will..lol....even with a premature rebuild, my overall maintenance and rebuild costs are less than 10,000 usd for 5 years. funny. is price i paid for boat also......rodlmao....
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Old 22-02-2014, 14:15   #25
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Re: Opinions Sought on Newish Old vs. Older Boat Purchase

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
All of your choices would work for you so nothing wrong with your homework. The early Benni's are really nice boats if kept up and are wicked sailors. You'd have to find one that was really well looked after. Because your going to sail in fresh water I would stay with fresh water boats, the average boat is just so much nicer than salt water boats.
I'm partial to CS boats as well as I've owned them and sailed them offshore but it gets back to finding a real clean one.
Find something that has been well looked after and maintained and you'll enjoy it every time you use it. Because your talking about large lake sailing you could also have a close look at the C&C's.
The C&C's we've looked at didn't have the fit and finish inside that we expected. I was a little suprised. They definately lean on the racer/cruiser end of the cruiser spectrum. A deep keel, like many of them have, won't suit our future plans to move Southeast. A 7' keel in the Bahamas isn't ideal.

We're probably going to get out and try and look at some CS models in the 36-40 range this spring/summer.
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Old 22-02-2014, 14:20   #26
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Re: Opinions sought on newish old vs. older boat purchase

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One thing to keep in mind is that you could have a tough time financing a boat over 30 years old, and if you get something close to that cutoff, it could affect resale, as the person purchasing it from you will also run into that issue.
We'd like to keep it to 15 years or less, but I think we'll be priced out of the market. 25 is about as old as we think we'll go.

As for financing, I understand we'll have to track down a banker who is very experienced with boat loans, one that will take boat sold numbers and survey values into account.
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Old 22-02-2014, 14:22   #27
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Re: Opinions Sought on Newish Old vs. Older Boat Purchase

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The C&C's we've looked at didn't have the fit and finish inside that we expected. I was a little suprised. They definately lean on the racer/cruiser end of the cruiser spectrum. A deep keel, like many of them have, won't suit our future plans to move Southeast. A 7' keel in the Bahamas isn't ideal.

We're probably going to get out and try and look at some CS models in the 36-40 range this spring/summer.
Hmmm... confused....Is this a coastal cruiser as originally stated or are you sailing further south...?
If you like the look and ergonomics of the newish Beneteaus... you're going to have a hard time liking the older production boats like C&C etc.
One boat often not mentioned is the Dufours. The older ones are really good boats... better than most.
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Old 22-02-2014, 14:33   #28
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Re: Opinions sought on newish old vs. older boat purchase

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The original question is really about the degree one wants to be a boat snob, if you really think that a "name" on a 1981 boat outweighs anything at the same price of 1988 boat you are just considering snob appeal.

When looking any 80s boat: get the boat that you like best and is in the best condition, period!
I agree with your last statement, but not necessarily the former.

It will come down to condition, build quality, systems updates etc. I don't think wanting a slightly older Tartan or Sabre over a slightly newer Hunter or Catalina makes me a snob. That's ignoring sailing reputation, design differences and initial build quality. Those boats cost more because people value them higher,and the market dictates prices.

My S.O. collects and uses tools. I know the difference now between something like Felder and Craftsman. Am I a snob?
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Old 22-02-2014, 14:36   #29
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Re: Opinions Sought on Newish Old vs. Older Boat Purchase

True the C&C's do tend to be deeper in the keel. If I had my choice between the CS36 Traditional and the Merlin I would take the Traditional if I had any ideas of going offshore. Many of these CS boats have been taken offshore and Ray Wall the designer spent years with Camper Nicholson and knew how to design a good boat. I have personally sailed the CS36T shoal draft (Scheel keel) many thousands of miles offshore and have a very high respect for the design. It does have a shallow bilge but like all boats its hard to have it all. There are some real nice examples of this design out there and they are held in high regard by those that know them and have sailed them....and they are really a 37 or almost a 37, lol.
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Old 22-02-2014, 14:43   #30
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Re: Opinions Sought on Newish Old vs. Older Boat Purchase

Pull up the land anchor, put the important stuff in storage, sell the rest with the house and buy your SO's dream boat.

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