Opinions on the Freedom sailboats..

[CalienteinCR]

Hey Folks! So I have been looking at the Freedom sailboats for some time now. I like the concept of a stand alone mast, without the rigging leaving more deck space, as well as the interior layout. I also like that it can be single handed quite easily for it's size, and that all the rigging runs to the cockpit. The shotgun spinnaker is a great idea as well. A friend circumnavigated with a 38 ft ketch rig and loved it. That said, I am curious what you sailing vets think about the Freedom sailboats... Hoyt, or Petrick? I saw an older 40 once with a center cockpit and aft cabin. I liked that one a lot. I am looking at either a Freedom, or a Shannon 43, 44 pilot house. Feedback desired! Thanks!!

[Conchfritterz]

We are on a Shannon 38 and I can tell you after looking at many and I do mean many boats, the build quality was no comparison. Sailed on a 43 as well. They are well built and sea kindly. Our 38 will take us anywhere. Love the cat rigs too, but I would not trade my shannon for anything, well except a bigger shannon!

[Cheechako]

I always liked the Freedom concept. Not sure I've seen many out in the big water though. I dont bash to weather much anyway so a rigless mast sounds like a cool deal to me! Those probably point a lot better the the HC38 in my avatar anyway! On a good day it might tack through 140 degrees! As with all cored hulls ....get a very good survey..... Spade rudder... so read up on all the recent lost rudder posts and make your own decision....

[CalienteinCR]

Sweet! this is the video for the Shannon 43 Mark II. The wheel house looks very inviting. Wonder if there is an aft cabin version of this 43?

The Ultimate Bluewater Sailboat with Inside Steering

Thanks for your input Cheechako!

[skipmac]

If I recall correctly the Freedoms were built at the Tillotson/Pearson yard in RI. In general they make very good boats.

The biggest issue with the Freedoms as mentioned it they don't point all that well but that could be said about a lot of boats.

[Rubikoop]

My Freedom has a skeg rudder as do many others. Most Freedoms were built by TPI, some were built under license in the UK. More info can be found here. http://sailboatdata.com/view_builder.asp?builder_id=223 More information can be found here. http://www.freedomyachts.org/index.php Lots of info and a decent blog on this site too. http://www.geoffschultz.org I've owned my Express for about a year and I'm still improving my upwind sailing skills on this boat. I agree they are not fast upwind but I feel the boat more than makes up for that on just about every other point of sail. I typically tack through 105 degrees with a very old main sail and a very new mizzen. Off the wind 8-10kts is not uncommon for extended periods. Sail handling is such a joy I accept the lack of upwind performance. Boats are compromises after all.

[eyschulman]

most of the line where built by TPI and build is same as J boats-Alerion ex all balsa cored. In general light and strong. You must always check for water intrusion common on decks where fittings were placed esp. after factory. While the finish is not dock furniture quality it is generally good. Many TPI rudders were prone to problems if left out on the hard in bright sun with dark paint got to hot and split allowing water into foam. Not all yards know about this, Those in the know covered rudders with insulating surface cardboard insulated cover etc. I owned 5 TPI boats ans still own one and have been generally pleased with all.

[clockwork orange]

While I havnt worked on any freedoms I have been deep inside the skins of many tpi built j boats of the same era and have a very low opinion of the construction quality, or lack thereof. You would think that after building thousands of boats they would have learned a thing or two but at least with j boats of the 80s the construction was very poor. I like the Freedoms too, if you buy one make sure you hire a good surveyor and make sure he spends a lot of time looking for core issues.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by clockwork orange

While I havnt worked on any freedoms I have been deep inside the skins of many tpi built j boats of the same era and have a very low opinion of the construction quality, or lack thereof. You would think that after building thousands of boats they would have learned a thing or two but at least with j boats of the 80s the construction was very poor. I like the Freedoms too, if you buy one make sure you hire a good surveyor and make sure he spends a lot of time looking for core issues.

Would be interested in what sort of problems you have found with TP boats. I have a 1984 Pearson that I done everything but pull the deck off and have not found any horrendous issues.

Like most boats of that age and indeed even those made today, the deck fittings were drilled into the deck core and after 30 years there has been some minor water intrusion in a few spots. I did the standard fix for these.

Every significant fitting on the boat is through bolted. A very few small things are screwed in.

Perhaps the biggest mistake was mounting the Al mast base into an steel step on the keel. The PO left the bilge full of water and the two metals reacted, eating 2 1/2" off the bottom of the mast but that was a fairly simple fix as well.

The only other build shortfall I can think of is the stanchions were mounted with little Mickey Mouse backing pads which I have replaced with large SS backing plates.

Since I'm doing a total refit and there were very small, shallow bubbles in the gelcoat I did an epoxy seal of the bottom. When I shaved off the gelcoat the balso core was clearly visible and in perfect condition.

Over all I'm pretty pleased with the build and have no regrets so far. Ask me again in a couple of years.

[markpierce]

For those who hate foresail changes.

[clockwork orange]

Skipmac, I have done recoring on about a dozen tpi built boats over the years, both hulls and decks, mostly J boats but a couple of Pearsons too but just smaller stuff. As a little background I have been a boatbuilder for over 40 years and I know how boats should be built and I get angry when i see all the lessons we learned all those years ago ignored by builders who should know better.
Some of the poor build practices include backstay chainplates on 2 J35s that were bolted through balsa core which allowed water to enter and migrate downhill rotting out the transom, now you would think that it would stop at the corner but the morons butted the transom core to the hull core instead of tapering it away so that only solid glass goes around the corner like any competent builder would, faliure to do this allowed the water to continue around the corner and rot out a large area of the bottom too on one of the boats, the other we caught in time. Also on a J35 they ran the core all the way up under the sheer where it rolls over into the deck flange, another place where good build practice dictates that you taper the core away and carry only solid glass around the corner, in this instance something sharp had punctured the top edge and someone had pumped some silicone in the hole and not fixed it properly for who knows how long, it was only a small puncture but water entered and migrated and rotted out 6 to 8 sq ft down to the waterline. Same boat, winches, jenoa tracks etc bolted right through the balsa core without any attempt at doing the job correctly, what makes it really unforgivable is that they are production boats, they know where every piece of major hardware goes so there is no excuse, you either taper away the core in these areas and layup extra glass or replace the core with a high density replacement, in those days it would likley have been plywood, or solid hardwood, these days, G10 or coosa board. Btw, one of the 35s developed vertical cracks in the gelcoat both sides full length running from sheer to waterline when it was new in 84, it was shipped back to the factory and regelcoated which did work. We also encountered the same problem with a J40 which we repaired. Had they followed accepted build practices none of these major repairs would have have been necessary, very low quality builders imho.

Steve.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by clockwork orange

Skipmac, I have done recoring on about a dozen tpi built boats over the years, both hulls and decks, mostly J boats but a couple of Pearsons too but just smaller stuff. As a little background I have been a boatbuilder for over 40 years and I know how boats should be built and I get angry when i see all the lessons we learned all those years ago ignored by builders who should know better.
Some of the poor build practices include backstay chainplates on 2 J35s that were bolted through balsa core which allowed water to enter and migrate downhill rotting out the transom, now you would think that it would stop at the corner but the morons butted the transom core to the hull core instead of tapering it away so that only solid glass goes around the corner like any competent builder would, faliure to do this allowed the water to continue around the corner and rot out a large area of the bottom too on one of the boats, the other we caught in time. Also on a J35 they ran the core all the way up under the sheer where it rolls over into the deck flange, another place where good build practice dictates that you taper the core away and carry only solid glass around the corner, in this instance something sharp had punctured the top edge and someone had pumped some silicone in the hole and not fixed it properly for who knows how long, it was only a small puncture but water entered and migrated and rotted out 6 to 8 sq ft down to the waterline. Same boat, winches, jenoa tracks etc bolted right through the balsa core without any attempt at doing the job correctly, what makes it really unforgivable is that they are production boats, they know where every piece of major hardware goes so there is no excuse, you either taper away the core in these areas and layup extra glass or replace the core with a high density replacement, in those days it would likley have been plywood, or solid hardwood, these days, G10 or coosa board. Btw, one of the 35s developed vertical cracks in the gelcoat both sides full length running from sheer to waterline when it was new in 84, it was shipped back to the factory and regelcoated which did work. We also encountered the same problem with a J40 which we repaired. Had they followed accepted build practices none of these major repairs would have have been necessary, very low quality builders imho.

Steve.

Not a racer so have only second hand knowledge of J boats but I have to say this is the first I have heard of serious problems with the line and in fact the first serious criticisms I have ever heard of any of the boats built at TP. I am pretty active on the Pearson 424 owners group web site and have never heard any of these problems reported by any of the 42 owners and there are a few hundred of these boats that have been on the water for 20-30 years.

I can certainly verify from first hand experience that my '84 Pearson has none of the problems you report. For one thing, the hull is balsa cored only from the waterline down, solid glass above so no issues with the hull/deck joint, chain plates, etc. I have checked all the through hulls below the waterline and in every case the balsa core was removed and a diameter at least a couple of inches around the hole is solid glass. Except for the stanchion bases the fittings on deck like winches, etc are also on solid glass.

Other than some minor crazing of the gelcoat on the deck around the stanchion bases I have seen no problems with cracking. Also checked things like the tabbing on all the bulkheads and floors and that is solid.

Maybe the issue is at some points the J-boats were built light, quick, dirty and cheap for a price and that's what you got.

[clockwork orange]

I have no doubt that tpi know how a boat should be built, I believe that they probably need to build to the standard dictated by their customer, they also built a few boats for Deerfoot, im quite sure there would have had a full time person from deerfoot overseeing every aspect of construction so it would be a whole different level of construction.Where the Freedom builds fall in I do not know as I have not inspected one. The only Pearsons I have worked on are older ones where the deck core was indeed tapered out correctly as it came out to the edge, unfortunatly a little too soon so that the inboard bolts of the stanchion bases went through the tapered part of the core allowing water to enter and rot the core.So close to getting it right. This stuff is not rocket science but it does take attention to detail an a full understanding of the consequences of not getting it right, and indeed, giving a damn.
Btw, J boats are famous for rotten cores, especially among people who repair boats for a living.

Steve.

[Tx J]

Originally Posted by clockwork orange

Skipmac, I have done recoring on about a dozen tpi built boats over the years, both hulls and decks, mostly J boats but a couple of Pearsons too but just smaller stuff. As a little background I have been a boatbuilder for over 40 years and I know how boats should be built and I get angry when i see all the lessons we learned all those years ago ignored by builders who should know better.
Some of the poor build practices include backstay chainplates on 2 J35s that were bolted through balsa core which allowed water to enter and migrate downhill rotting out the transom, now you would think that it would stop at the corner but the morons butted the transom core to the hull core instead of tapering it away so that only solid glass goes around the corner like any competent builder would, faliure to do this allowed the water to continue around the corner and rot out a large area of the bottom too on one of the boats, the other we caught in time. Also on a J35 they ran the core all the way up under the sheer where it rolls over into the deck flange, another place where good build practice dictates that you taper the core away and carry only solid glass around the corner, in this instance something sharp had punctured the top edge and someone had pumped some silicone in the hole and not fixed it properly for who knows how long, it was only a small puncture but water entered and migrated and rotted out 6 to 8 sq ft down to the waterline. Same boat, winches, jenoa tracks etc bolted right through the balsa core without any attempt at doing the job correctly, what makes it really unforgivable is that they are production boats, they know where every piece of major hardware goes so there is no excuse, you either taper away the core in these areas and layup extra glass or replace the core with a high density replacement, in those days it would likley have been plywood, or solid hardwood, these days, G10 or coosa board. Btw, one of the 35s developed vertical cracks in the gelcoat both sides full length running from sheer to waterline when it was new in 84, it was shipped back to the factory and regelcoated which did work. We also encountered the same problem with a J40 which we repaired. Had they followed accepted build practices none of these major repairs would have have been necessary, very low quality builders imho.

Steve.

There can be stark differences in build quality and design. While I don't have a lot of hands-on repair/modify experience on sailboats,
I mess about with center-console fishing boats and I'll give an example.

Mako boats are a legendary brand, there is a whole subculture devoted to restoring "classic" Makos (particularly certain model series), I luv 'em, but...
I began a search for one and after years of looking, decided on a Robalo, a similar boat, but having a much better design and build quality (IMO).

For example: on a Mako the center console base flange itself is simply screwed/bolted vertically directly into the flat deck (usually wet), consequence- many/most older Makos had/have rotten main decks- a design and build fault that is almost impossible for even a fastidious owner to overcome (and a rotten deck inevitably results in the fuel tank located in a 'coffin' just below the deck to fail, of course on both brands the tank is rather inaccessible).
The Robalo center console? Robalo designed a raised plug (glassed-in plycore) rising above the deck at least 1-2", the base of the center console slips onto this proud plug, and has a flange/trim piece that is then fastened horizontally into the sides of the raised plug, yielding an almost waterproof joint (since it is raised above the usually awash deck; and any water intrusion on the fasteners attacks the raised plug, not the deck- and I've never had any rot here anyway).
There are many, many other designed-in advantages (and perceived build quality) that guided me to buy Robalo over Mako.

[CalienteinCR]

OK, aside from the potential balsa core issues, would love to hear from folks who have had experience sailing the Freedom sailboats. It is a pretty revolutionary design concept to move away from the rigged mast and sail to a fixed mast. The shotgun spinnaker is an incredible idea for a single hander. The interior layouts that I have seen are very space conscious and attractive. Most times you do get what you pay for, so OK, the Freedom is not a Shannon! but it is about 200 k cheaper. Is there a year that they started making the Freedom's a little better to address any of the issues with the balsa core? Thanks to everyone who has made input, I am enjoying the response. And I do have to say that the video of the Shannon 43 Pilothouse demonstrates a great build and design. Easy to single hand, and a great area to escape the sun and weather!