Opinions...even wrong ones welcomed!

[Rangiroo]

Another "help me Help me" thread however I'm a little further advanced along the track than some....here's my situation and what I need.....
I'm planning on jumping shore this November or so...pragmatic enough to be flexible....I (naively) bought a big boat 2 years ago and have realized it is just too big and besides my domestic situation has changed somewhat since then anyways. I originally bought the bigger (60') boat with a friend and we were going to charter her for up to 5 years before shoving off around the world. As I said my domestic situation has changed since then and myself and my significantOther want to buy a smaller boat and go by ourselves. This new (secondhand) boat is going to be our home...our condo...our refuge...our house....for as long as it takes to get sick of it...I'm imagining at the very least 5yrs more like 10yrs or more...and we have a pretty free "go where ever we want" attitude to it, which means ALL over the world...probably not too far into higher lattitudes just yet but may later.
So....I have narrowed a choice of a new boat down to several that are available on Yachtworld and I'd like some advice and opinions on the specific models that I list below...pros and cons for each model before I spend money traipsing all over the country looking at these boats....I've been looking in the 42-48ft range, prefer a slower safer boat over a rocket,
and my budget tops out for purchase at around $200k....I'm not averse to spend LESS than that of course but if it's an older boat I'd like it to be already refitted....
I have listed these in no particular order.....

Amel 46
Stevens 47
Celestial 48
Norseman 44
Hylas 44, 47
Bowman 49

All of these boats fit my budget. Some have things I like...some have things I don't like but I'd like to hear from anyone familiar with any of these boats,...how they handle...what they are like to LIVE in...access to engine etc etc etc...you all know the things to look for as do I. I want your opinions before I spend money on going to look......

Thanks in advance!!
Michael

[ssullivan]

Michael... I have *drooled* over a few Hylases in my time. They make comfortable liveaboards and seem to hold their own while making speedy passages. One of my favorite all time boats.

[Rangiroo]

Originally Posted by ssullivan

Michael... I have *drooled* over a few Hylases in my time. They make comfortable liveaboards and seem to hold their own while making speedy passages. One of my favorite all time boats.

Yeah I like them too...I'm gonna be in Florida for Memorial Day weekend so I have about 6 boats to look at while I'm there....I guess I'm at the stage where I need to get inside some of these boats to see what they "feel" like...for space and comfort etc etc....we'll see....who knows...I may even look at a Hirsch next month.......you never know.....

[ssullivan]

I knew a couple in the Caribbean who owned the Hylas 47. They were from Vancouver. They had sailed the boat in any number of storms and lived aboard with their young daughter (5 yrs old?). I spent time aboard the boat and found it to be an excellent liveaboard. It seemed to have the right compromise between liveaboard and go-fast cruiser. (Similar to the less expensive Hirsh... ha ha... kidding) Really, the Hylas did have that type of balance. It was roomy, light and airy below decks and well laid out. All hardware was top notch. Nothing felt "cheap" at all on the boat, which I wouldn't expect it to either... given the cost.

Performance wise, they boat also mixed comfort with speed. Inherently, it's a pretty fast boat, but the couple I knew said it behaved very well in rough conditions heading down from Vancouver to the Caribbean.

I also have been aboard the larger Hylases and had a chack with that guy Dick who owns the company. We asked him the tough questions about his production overseas and the answers seemed honest and that the boats were built under a very watchful eye from his office.

One thing most of them have are those teak decks. I don't know if they have figured out how to make them such that the boats don't leak years down the road, but that might be the only drawback. I know those teak decks are an option though, so your particular Hylas may not have them.

As a confession, I looked at buying one of these before my company was destroyed by 9/11. Good thing I didn't, given the current state of my finances. ha ha

That's about all I can add...

Best of luck. I think the hardest part with this boat list is that you can't go completely wrong with any of them.

[Nordia]

You are planning to circumnavigate for approx 10 years? It better be a very good boat. I noticed that all the yachts you suggested are GRP's (or bathtubs as we call them). Is this for a specific reason?

[Rangiroo]

Originally Posted by Nordia

You are planning to circumnavigate for approx 10 years? It better be a very good boat. I noticed that all the yachts you suggested are GRP's (or bathtubs as we call them). Is this for a specific reason?

No...no specific reason....I guess Steel means more maintenance but thats about all...I only WISH I could afford a nearly new Nordia........also not too many of them for sale here in the US........

Actually another consideration about steel and I could be completely wrong but I have heard a number of times that steel boats generally rust from the inside out and it is very difficult to actually check that without dismantling the woodwork. Therefore I have surmised that it would be more risk to buy an older steel boat because of those potential problems...it could look fantastic on the outside but have some very thin spots in the hull from hidden rust that are not easy to find/covered up with panelling etc....if that is not the case then I would certainly look at a steel hull.......

[Nordia]

Originally Posted by Rangiroo

...I only WISH I could afford a nearly new Nordia........also not too many of them for sale here in the US........

Nordias have a very long life span. There are still owners sailing non-stop on 30 year old yachts without any kind of trouble. Nordias don't get old, they simply age. There is a '64 ketch on sale in Florida for $270K, but she needs some work. Hope she finds someone that looks after her.

The US has never been a big Nordia market. As far as my knowledge goes it was just one customer for a Nordia and some Trewes yachts in the past. Not so much when you've built 1084 boats.

My knowledge of production boats is very limited. I'm affraid I can't help you with that.

[Nordia]

Michael,
My advise on hull material is aluminium and if possible Alustar.
It's simply a lot lighter than steel and a lot stronger tham plastic.

[Ed Steele]

Michael,
We bought an Amel 53. There are some differences between the Amel 46 and the Amel 53 but Amel’s construction has been so conservative, the major design concept has remained the same.

We assumed that we would make mistakes on our first boat purchase. We further assumed that we would keep our first boat for about three years and then our second boat purchase would be based upon enhanced knowledge and experience. We also checked the price of used Amels and estimated that depreciation into our three year cruising budget. We have now owned SV DoodleBug for 4 years and feel that we were fortunate to have picked a winner on the first try. We did originally look at the Hylas 47 and it was also high on our list. We chose the Amel because it was strong and safe with 6 watertight compartments; was fully equipped and “ready to go”; could be single-handed; is low maintenance - by this I mean that those “real” teak decks look really great but are a pain to maintain; fabulous engine access; luxury features and comfort level to satisfy the first mate.

We did not consider construction other than GRP and there are plenty of threads discussing the pros and cons of other construction materials, maintenance of same, insurability etc.

Good luck and Fair Winds!
Ed & Annette

[Rangiroo]

Originally Posted by Ed Steele

Michael,
We bought an Amel 53. There are some differences between the Amel 46 and the Amel 53 but Amel’s construction has been so conservative, the major design concept has remained the same.

We assumed that we would make mistakes on our first boat purchase. We further assumed that we would keep our first boat for about three years and then our second boat purchase would be based upon enhanced knowledge and experience. We also checked the price of used Amels and estimated that depreciation into our three year cruising budget. We have now owned SV DoodleBug for 4 years and feel that we were fortunate to have picked a winner on the first try. We did originally look at the Hylas 47 and it was also high on our list. We chose the Amel because it was strong and safe with 6 watertight compartments; was fully equipped and “ready to go”; could be single-handed; is low maintenance - by this I mean that those “real” teak decks look really great but are a pain to maintain; fabulous engine access; luxury features and comfort level to satisfy the first mate.

We did not consider construction other than GRP and there are plenty of threads discussing the pros and cons of other construction materials, maintenance of same, insurability etc.

Good luck and Fair Winds!
Ed & Annette

Thanks for your experience there Ed and Annette....I've heard over and over again about the Amel and they are definitely high on my list!...again the choices are somewhat limited here in the US...how do you find 53ft to handle for a couple?? Also the galley looks just a little cramped??...I am saying that from photos only. I have yet to set foot on one.......I have thought about looking at the Amel 53...there is only one for sale in my price range here in the US.

And just for the record I am NOT a fan of teak decks...my attitude to them is if they are on the boat I REALLY want then I would assume and budget for them being removed and replaced with glass at some stage.....it would not stop me buying that boat though...

[Nordia]

I did a quick browse on YW. My pick for your budget would be the '50 Pieter Beeldsnijder cutter. A very well built yacht from one of the best naval architects in the world. I don't know which yard built it, but it looks like a Dutch job to me.

Good luck with your quest.

[Rangiroo]

Originally Posted by Nordia

I did a quick browse on YW. My pick for your budget would be the '50 Pieter Beeldsnijder cutter. A very well built yacht from one of the best naval architects in the world. I don't know which yard built it, but it looks like a Dutch job to me.

Good luck with your quest.

LOL....I SO appreciate you looking for me...unfortunately that vessel is about 3 times my top of the line budget...

I did find this one though.....pretty interesting.....
The Wharf At Handy's Point (Worton, MD)&

(EDIT) Ooops...I just did a second search on YW and found the one you are talking about...I'll look at it next week when I'm down there...my first search only turned up one for $600k......so thanks again!!!...

[capt lar]

Jeez - looking at that Nordia, I'll never complain about my brightwork again.
Check out the size of that coffee pot sitting in the cockpit - these guys really love their java !

[Ed Steele]

Michael,
I know of two different owners who are single-handing Amel 53’s. I single-handed ours for 4 days after my wife took a tumble in 2004 and broke some ribs. The Amel is well designed in this regard (for single-handing not rib-breaking). I am not advocating single-handing mind you; after that experience, I had a whole lot more respect for those who choose this style of sailing. BUT, the capability of single-handed sail-handling, anchoring, rigging poles and the like, is important for short handed passage-making. For couples, you are essentially single-handing while the first mate or captain is off watch.

I thought the Amel looked cramped when I first looked at photographs on a web-page. What we found is that this is more of a visual effect caused by the Amel use of bulkheads. The boat is ketch rigged and both the main and mizzen masts are deck stepped onto double thickness bulkheads. The bulkheads provide significant stiffening, provide the structure for watertight compartments but also define the cabin layout. We have seen other boat designs where you could hold a dance in the main cabin. These seemingly spacious designs are great for entertaining while at the dock but in a seaway, the hull twists and flexes and you take your life in your hands to transit the cabin.
When choosing a boat for passage-making, look carefully at the kitchen, the heads and the berths. Can you use them in a seaway? Are the heads and the showers usable when at sea? Can you sleep safely in rough weather? Are there good handholds throughout?

There are lots of good blue-water designs but for low maintenance and value for money, we believe the Amel deserves careful consideration.
Fair Winds,
Ed and Annette

[Boracay]

Since the thought of a steel boat has crossed your mind I would suggest that if you can find one that has been designed for maintenance that it could be considered.

Just ask if the cabinetry can be removed (unbolted to get at the stringers, frames and the plating), what paint system was used on the inside, if the insulation was foamed in place and if stainless has been welded onto areas where the paint might chip.

If its yes, known process and thick, no and yes than it could be looked at.

Otherwise there is going to be serious ongoing maintenance.