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Old 26-02-2009, 07:42   #16
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You missed a key variable she revealed in her last post. Thus, your equation is fundamentally flawed. Here is your equation using your (very clever!) structure:

Sail Now (+1) + Save Now (+1) + Finish School (+1) = 3

Makes sense but we are guys.

However, based on your approach and her latest post, it ought to read:

Sail Now (+1) + Save Now (+1) + Finish School (+1) + Female with no Decent Place to Pee (-10X10 cubed) = Negative Infinity.
the girlis is a girl????

Oh, crud. I am slipping bad... Please see revised equation.

Girl (+1) + Own boat (+1) + cute* (+1) + knows how to fix them (+1) + College Educated (+1) = Perfect 10...

*(I checked)

Oh to be 25 years younger ;-(

Girlis - Just funnin ya. Bigger boat now, with skills to do "rolling" refits makes better sense. There are lots of TLC boats out there. If you have the time and the money to keep the refit going and can enjoy the bigger space you should do it. Don't forget to expnentially plan your fixed costs - mooring, hardware costs etc. But you prolly already know that...
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Old 26-02-2009, 07:48   #17
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I think there is a significant difference in the experience one gets in a boat like the Potter vs a sound 28-32 footer. Someone else wrote above about the difference between tenting and RVing...very apt.

Sailing, cruising, fitting out and maintaining a 28-32 ft vessel will give you just about the same kind of experience needed to cruise on a 40 footer. Vessels of that size range will be able to take care of you out there and could have all the same systems that you will need to rebuild, maintain or install as a 40 footer would.

Cruising need not be camping out. A nice medium to large sized cruising boat can have hot and cold pressure water, decent galley with stove and oven, generous sleeping berth, fans, decent tankage for fuel and water, an inboard diesel engine, marine ssb radio etc etc. A 28-32 ( just picking this range) cuold have all that.

Thus, moving up to a good veseel in that range will add to your sailing skills, be able to take you places and enable you to learn just about everything you would wish to or need to.

The economics of owning a larger boat are another issue. Boats can take every spare dollar you have. They can prevent you from saving money. I am not sure of where you are in your life or your economics, but this is a consideration. It IS possible to own a boat and still save...it is all in the choice of boat, budgeting and discipline to do so.

Hope this helps

Best

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Old 26-02-2009, 07:58   #18
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I'd be most worried about selling the Potter in this economy. If you can get a good price for it now, choose option 1. If you can't, option 2 may be forced upon you.
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Old 26-02-2009, 12:46   #19
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I'd be most worried about selling the Potter in this economy. If you can get a good price for it now, choose option 1. If you can't, option 2 may be forced upon you.
Good point.......

.....FWIW I would keep the Potter. and use her (and also get experiance from crewing - and if really keen helping folk out with maintanence / renovation )........But also over the next 2 years keep an eye out for (and ask around on the ground / get known as looking) the "right" boat - whatever that may be...the longer you are looking the more you will learn and the more likely to find the ever elusive deal / steal of a lifetime........

......and keep saving. and studying. IMO no point mortgaging your economic future with an MAB (Manky Auld Boat )......always time to do that later
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Old 26-02-2009, 13:08   #20
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I think EX-Calif hits on a key point - Time! It seems clear that any boat purchased will need some work. I would go so far as to say every boat needs some work. It also points out if you want to meet a time schedule for being ready you really don't have a choice but to get a better boat that does not need much work because it will need some work. I really doubt you could complete a lot of work in two years. It would be nice to sail this boat a bit to shake it down and get to know it well on the water. Any boat you can still sail may still need a lot of work. Anything that can't sail yet is in serious shape.

I still claim sailing is more about showing up than anything else. Showing up comes after you make a living, meet objectives and keep up with the chores of life and a new boat. The work you did on the Potter is all good applicable effort but the work on this new boat is geometrically larger than the Potter. Half again as big means double the work. It's not just more of the same work but also more types of work as you add all the boat systems. I'm not sure what the multiplier for that is.

You need to make the time work so you can make the money work. Time is most of your problem now. It appears you could be in a hurry. It's a habit you have to kick before you leave. Being in a hurry is not an attribute of a good sailor. It can get you killed.
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Old 26-02-2009, 13:50   #21
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I think EX-Calif hits on a key point - Time! It seems clear that any boat purchased will need some work. I would go so far as to say every boat needs some work. It also points out if you want to meet a time schedule for being ready you really don't have a choice but to get a better boat that does not need much work because it will need some work. I really doubt you could complete a lot of work in two years. It would be nice to sail this boat a bit to shake it down and get to know it well on the water. Any boat you can still sail may still need a lot of work. Anything that can't sail yet is in serious shape.

I still claim sailing is more about showing up than anything else. Showing up comes after you make a living, meet objectives and keep up with the chores of life and a new boat. The work you did on the Potter is all good applicable effort but the work on this new boat is geometrically larger than the Potter. Half again as big means double the work. It's not just more of the same work but also more types of work as you add all the boat systems. I'm not sure what the multiplier for that is.

You need to make the time work so you can make the money work. Time is most of your problem now. It appears you could be in a hurry. It's a habit you have to kick before you leave. Being in a hurry is not an attribute of a good sailor. It can get you killed.

The time schedule is so that I have a goal. I have seen too many people say I'll do it eventually, or when the time is right, or once something or other happens... A goal is a point on the horizon that you are trying to get to. Even if it takes you longer to get there, at least you know where you are going. I'm not saying two years is the end all and I'm going to sail off with a half-finished boat in pieces. It's merely a starting point.

I don't plan on buying a boat that can't sail or isn't in at least decent condition! The idea is to find a decent weekender-type boat and convert it into a cruiser while cleaning it up. I'm alway trolling around the boat yards finding decent boats that people just don't want to deal with anymore and will sell fairly cheap.
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Old 26-02-2009, 14:01   #22
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One person's idea of "cruising" may be different than another person's idea of "cruising".

If you are thinking of crossing oceans, I will make the same suggestion to you that I would anyone else. I would suggest buying the biggest boat that you can afford. Buy a boat that has a good hull, and everything else needs rebuilding and or replacing and do it ALL yourself.

You may be able to find a $200,000 boat for $10,000 (I've done it more than once). Take the boat apart, remove the mast(s), rudder and engine. Rebuild everything, electronics and all. By the time you are finished, you will know exactly what you have, what spares to carry, you'll have all the tools you need and ability to effect repairs at sea.

There are no mechanics at sea and no one is going to come out 100 miles to tow you in...no one. Not even a professional towing service, without a huge cash retainer (maybe $5K-$50K, depending on conditions). If you can't fix it, by yourself, you will be in the position that so many that have come before you have found themselves. Abandoning your home at sea is not only humiliating, emotionally and financially devastating but it is extremely dangerous.

I feel that mechanical ability is far more important than sailing skills. Almost anyone can make it across an ocean with a minimal amount of sailing skills. However, when things start breaking, it is your mechanical ability that will get you home safely, not your sailing skills.

I would like to repeat what Pblais said, "Being in a hurry is not an attribute of a good sailor. It can get you killed".
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Old 26-02-2009, 14:37   #23
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Good point.......

.....FWIW I would keep the Potter.
Well sure, if she can handle the expense of owning two boats and can finance the second boat without the proceeds from selling the Potter.
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Old 26-02-2009, 16:50   #24
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For the record, I am talking about coastal cruising right now, with maybe a few longer passages. The caribbean, the keys, places like that.
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Old 26-02-2009, 16:55   #25
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For the record, I am talking about coastal cruising right now, with maybe a few longer passages. The caribbean, the keys, places like that.
Coastal cruising is a little different story. Once you head off past the Caribbean.......see my post above.

However, I would still strongly suggest the highest level of mechanical experience that you can get. The better that you are at problem solving on your own, the safer you will be.
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Old 26-02-2009, 18:17   #26
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You ask what I needed when I said "I do not think you have not told us enough for any of us to offer solid advice".

Your recent post is a good start:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thegirlis View Post
For the record, I am talking about coastal cruising right now, with maybe a few longer passages. The caribbean, the keys, places like that.
I was trying to remind folk with opinions that there are a myriad of factors that drive decisions to replace. Drivers are different for every sailor. If it helps, the loop of questions I ask includes:

[1] How grumpy am I with my beloved (boat)?
[2] What do I want to do on my boat right now, that I can't do now?
[3] What do I want to do in two years, that I can't do right now?
[4] So what capabilities (much more than length) do I need to step up?
[5] Do I have the resources (time, tools, energy, etc) to step up now?

One risk is moving too soon, and refurbishing the wrong boat. You would also fail to benefit from all that hard work done on your present boat. But if it is definitely the wrong boat for you now ... move now is one answer.

Given a goal of coastal cruising, a modest step up may well do the job. But if you wanted to get to the Marquesas, I would have suggested an entirely different approach. I also wondered whether you lived aboard, until you mentioned a five month sailing season! (Brrrr - we do twelve.)

If you want to sail alone, small can be beautiful. Everything is in reach, and within your physical capabilities. But small is also slow ... and less comfortable. Slow speed makes long hops hard. And there are always long hops when cruising. Perhaps that is a problem to you right now. Lack of privacy may also be an issue when sailing in mixed company.

You know these things. We do not. But we all have opinions ...
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Old 26-02-2009, 20:18   #27
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For the record, I am talking about coastal cruising right now, with maybe a few longer passages. The caribbean, the keys, places like that.
Given good sails no telling where you might go. Once you leave you are already there. This is one of those races where coming in last means you win.
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Old 26-02-2009, 22:02   #28
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Aloha,
My best advice (opinion) is keep the Potter and do some interesting sailing, save your money, get your degree and keep all your options open. The economy will not be turning around immediately and boat prices will continue to be flat or fall for a couple more years (opinion). If you commit to a certain project boat now and then have a change of heart after lots of hours and money sunk in her you will be stuck when a more perfect boat comes a long at a cheaper price.
I've spent a lot of time and cash fixing my boat and could have been doing a lot of cruising in a cheaper but smaller boat. If I had it to do over again I would have saved the money for just the right boat. I've learned a lot more about what I truly want since I bought my hull and its many parts and pieces.
Our club has a WWP 19 and I really enjoy sailing her. Fun and interesting boat.
Good luck in whichever you choose.
Kind regards,
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Old 27-02-2009, 01:12   #29
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Originally Posted by roger.waite View Post
You ask what I needed when I said "I do not think you have not told us enough for any of us to offer solid advice".

Your recent post is a good start:


I was trying to remind folk with opinions that there are a myriad of factors that drive decisions to replace. Drivers are different for every sailor. If it helps, the loop of questions I ask includes:

[1] How grumpy am I with my beloved (boat)?
[2] What do I want to do on my boat right now, that I can't do now?
[3] What do I want to do in two years, that I can't do right now?
[4] So what capabilities (much more than length) do I need to step up?
[5] Do I have the resources (time, tools, energy, etc) to step up now?

One risk is moving too soon, and refurbishing the wrong boat. You would also fail to benefit from all that hard work done on your present boat. But if it is definitely the wrong boat for you now ... move now is one answer.

Given a goal of coastal cruising, a modest step up may well do the job. But if you wanted to get to the Marquesas, I would have suggested an entirely different approach. I also wondered whether you lived aboard, until you mentioned a five month sailing season! (Brrrr - we do twelve.)

If you want to sail alone, small can be beautiful. Everything is in reach, and within your physical capabilities. But small is also slow ... and less comfortable. Slow speed makes long hops hard. And there are always long hops when cruising. Perhaps that is a problem to you right now. Lack of privacy may also be an issue when sailing in mixed company.

You know these things. We do not. But we all have opinions ...
Yes, we have a short season here, unless of course you are quite partial to frostbite

I will answer these questions the best I can...

[1] How grumpy am I with my beloved (boat)?

I really miss having just a little bit bigger boat. I think I'm just going to dock it in the river this year, because it is just not good to have on high seas. Also, the whole bathroom situation is terrible! Not only is it not a decent place to pee, the port-a-potty is hard to get to. May not seem like that big of a problem, but if you are facing heavy weather, time makes a difference! Plus, the motor mount is set just a little too high- the motor comes out of the water in just a normal chop.

[2] What do I want to do on my boat right now, that I can't do now?

Trips longer than a night or two, sail in heavy weather... that sort of thing...

[3] What do I want to do in two years, that I can't do right now?

Sail down the icw to warmer climates without being afraid that normal bad weather will totally screw me over.

[4] So what capabilities (much more than length) do I need to step up?

Stability, comfort, set up. Sometimes it seems harder to get everything going on the potter than it was on the catalina 30!

[5] Do I have the resources (time, tools, energy, etc) to step up now?

I've got time, I have and can borrow tools, and one great thing about being young is that I have quite a bit of energy!

Here are some more clarifications:

My boat right now is the (camping) equivalent to a tarp propped up on a stick. Fun to do for one or two nights, then it sucks. If the weather is bad, it can ruin your trip. (read: scared shitless)

I'm not looking to upgrade to a floating palace. I'm looking to upgrade to (camping equivalent again) Something along the lines of a small pop-up camper. Nothing too fancy, but more roomy, better storage, that sort of thing.

Also, yes, I am a young small girl, but I'm no weakling. I'm not saying I could bench press as much as you guys, but come on, I'm a rock climbing instructor!

I think I'd like something in the 26-30 ft range - small enough to single hand, big enough to have a crew member or two on board. Roller furling, lazy jacks, inboard diesel or atomic 4 (scoff if you must, I just have worked on them before so they are familiar) small but useful galley (2 or 3 burner stove, oven, some sort of refrigeration, manual pump sink) and a marine head. You things that are really obtainable for cheap

I know that people have done what I want to do in boats as small as mine or smaller, but I just want a little more security than that.
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Old 27-02-2009, 05:36   #30
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So here's your next boat. Do you have the $7,500?
1972 Pearson Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Just kidding, of course, but IMHO this is the kind of boat you want and what you should expect to pay. You would have to add refrigeration and hot water.
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