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Old 20-06-2016, 20:37   #61
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Re: Opinion on Cape George 36

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Originally Posted by CarinaPDX View Post
pay for a quality survey.

Greg
Yup!

Also, never forget that the owner "WANTS TO SELL THE BOAT".

Hence, the bargaining power is in the hands of the buyer, not the seller. The "CG 36" is not a rare painting or collector's item. Be hard-nosed with the offer if you really want the boat.
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Old 21-06-2016, 19:27   #62
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Re: Opinion on Cape George 36

Apologies for bringing up a different CG for sale, but there seems to be extensive knowledge about these boats from CG owners and others on this thread.

This is a newer CG 38 I've had my eye on for at least a year now. The ad says it was built in 1992 and then says 1997 , but that it was launched in 2000. New Nanni diesel is a big plus for me, as are the FRG over plywood decks vs. teak, along with its overall well-kept looking condition (from the pics anyway, haven't seen it in person). Speaking of, why can't brokers get pics that aren't blurred, esp. for a nice boat with a $150,000 asking price?

Anyway, I'd love to get some feedback on this one. Apparently the owner is a master carpenter and finished out the interior, but I'd obviously want to know whether the owner or the factory completed some of the more critical structures. Can this be obtained, if need be, from the factory?

2000 Cape George 38 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
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Old 21-06-2016, 21:06   #63
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Re: Opinion on Cape George 36

I am currently working to complete a Cape George 38. Bought the 70% completed hull from the yard in 2000. It was laid up in 97. I have taken my time, obviously, and hope to splash in a couple years.
The work completed by the CG yard is as good as it gets. The difference in dates could be because of timelines like mine, or just error.
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Old 22-06-2016, 18:47   #64
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Re: Opinion on Cape George 36

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I am currently working to complete a Cape George 38. Bought the 70% completed hull from the yard in 2000. It was laid up in 97. I have taken my time, obviously, and hope to splash in a couple years.
The work completed by the CG yard is as good as it gets. The difference in dates could be because of timelines like mine, or just error.
An ambitious and impressive undertaking. Probably a bit daunting at times too. Thanks for the info and all the best towards your eventual splash.
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Old 23-06-2016, 16:51   #65
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Re: Opinion on Cape George 36

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I don't recall Joshua or Suhaili being rolled in the golden globe. Even though the boats spent 4 (or more) times as long in the southern ocean as the modern IMOCA 60's do. Both RKJ & BM got knocked down, but not inverted. If I recall correctly the only boat to capsize was Galway Blazer, a light disp fin keeled junk rigged boat.
While sailing in the roaring forties, during his first circumnavigation, Joshua was "rolled" several times. I read it in "La longue Route". Moitessier wrote that his boat was sent "stern over bow" but I doubt. I think his stern was raised by a big one, Joshua started sliding down the freak wave; I don't think his boat steered straight, but rather that his boat rolling movement induced broaching. The top of the big one finished the job by rolling Joshua who "tripped" over his full keel instead of sliding down sideways, but it happened so fast that Moitessier wasn't able to decompose the movement he went through.
I talked to Moitessier in 1979 in Mo'orea (At a bar in Cook's bay) but we didn't talk about it, instead we discussed the then new trend of light displacement full centerboards sailboats such as "Trismus" which had 2 centerboards, a main one to sail upwind & a smaller one, just in front of the rudder: The main one was fully raised & the aft fully lowered when "Trimus" was flying downwind. This layout was brought back to Europe by Belgium sailor Patrick Van God who had met, in Tahiti, a California American DIY sailor who had built his sailboat using this twin centerboard scheme copied from American East coast 19 century commercial sailboats
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Old 23-06-2016, 17:38   #66
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Re: Opinion on Cape George 36

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Anyway, I'd love to get some feedback on this one. Apparently the owner is a master carpenter and finished out the interior, but I'd obviously want to know whether the owner or the factory completed some of the more critical structures.
Not so obvious at all. Clearly this boat was finished to the highest standards, so why do you care who did it? Keep in mind that Cecil himself didn't do woodwork on boats other than his own since the '70s. A master carpenter who got a chance to study the construction could equal or better it if he cared to, as appears to be the case here. FWIW the woodworking I could see in the photos was done in Cecil's style. The only significant departure from my experience is the high crown on the overhead - he usually put less camber into the overhead beams. OTOH that is the sort of thing that might change with the owner's wishes (or height) - Cecil and I negotiated over the height of the house (me for internal height, Cecil for external looks - he won).

It seems to me highly unlikely that the quality of the construction that can't be seen in the photos is substandard. In any event you will need a thorough survey because by far the greatest risk is rot or other maintenance issues, not the original construction. Personally I wouldn't hesitate to make an offer subject to survey if I were looking for a CG38 - there were far fewer of them built than 36s, so don't hold your breath waiting for a better one.

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Old 23-06-2016, 18:11   #67
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Re: Opinion on Cape George 36

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Not so obvious at all. Clearly this boat was finished to the highest standards, so why do you care who did it? Keep in mind that Cecil himself didn't do woodwork on boats other than his own since the '70s. A master carpenter who got a chance to study the construction could equal or better it if he cared to, as appears to be the case here. FWIW the woodworking I could see in the photos was done in Cecil's style. The only significant departure from my experience is the high crown on the overhead - he usually put less camber into the overhead beams. OTOH that is the sort of thing that might change with the owner's wishes (or height) - Cecil and I negotiated over the height of the house (me for internal height, Cecil for external looks - he won).

It seems to me highly unlikely that the quality of the construction that can't be seen in the photos is substandard. In any event you will need a thorough survey because by far the greatest risk is rot or other maintenance issues, not the original construction. Personally I wouldn't hesitate to make an offer subject to survey if I were looking for a CG38 - there were far fewer of them built than 36s, so don't hold your breath waiting for a better one.

Greg
Thanks Greg. Much obliged. I was thinking more about critical structures such as the hull to deck joint, etc. I guess I'd feel more comfortable with the factory on items like this but your point about the prospect of high quality owner workmanship is well taken. A thorough survey by a knowledgeable surveyor is a must, of course, as is perhaps some info from the factory and the original owner (if possible) as to what level of completion it was originally sold in.

If this CG 38 is as good as it looks and has surveyed well already, then I'm thinking the only reason it may have stayed on the market so long is price. These boats are both rare and fall in a rather narrow niche, so not quite sure how to judge. Any ideas on that one?
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Old 23-06-2016, 18:26   #68
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Re: Opinion on Cape George 36

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While sailing in the roaring forties, during his first circumnavigation, Joshua was "rolled" several times. I read it in "La longue Route". Moitessier wrote that his boat was sent "stern over bow" but I doubt. I think his stern was raised by a big one, Joshua started sliding down the freak wave; I don't think his boat steered straight, but rather that his boat rolling movement induced broaching. The top of the big one finished the job by rolling Joshua who "tripped" over his full keel instead of sliding down sideways, but it happened so fast that Moitessier wasn't able to decompose the movement he went through.
My recollection of the translated english version of the book was that they were knockdowns, not complete capsizes. And he attributed them to the deck edge "tripping" as much as anything else. But I dont have my copy of the book handy, to double check. A quick skim through "voyage for madmen didn't uncover any capsizes except for the fin keeled Galway Blazer that lay ahull. It mentioned the knockdowns both BM and RKJ had near south africa.

Given that we have plenty of confirmed cases of open 60's and 50's completely capsizing, I would say this is a win to the heavy displacement long keel camp. Dispite owning a light fin keeler with a spade rudder, Id still rather be in a big old heavy steel long keeler in a real blow.

I'd love to try a centreboarder in heavy seas. I think lying a hull would be horrible, but talking to some friends who took their twin fore and aft centreboarder deep into the southern ocean. They say she runs off very well in a blow with the fwd board lifted and just the aft board down. In this configuration she did not want to broach.
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Old 23-06-2016, 18:57   #69
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Re: Opinion on Cape George 36

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I guess I'd feel more comfortable with the factory on items like this but your point about the prospect of high quality owner workmanship is well taken. A thorough survey by a knowledgeable surveyor is a must, of course, as is perhaps some info from the factory and the original owner (if possible) as to what level of completion it was originally sold in.
The thing is, the finish work and, for instance, those lovely overhead beams, might have been done by the yard or a really good woodworker - impossible to tell. But they were done after the shelf and deck beams, so either way someone knew what they were doing earlier. If it was the yard that did the overhead beams then you know the deck beams were theirs as well. And even if it were the owner, his work is right up there in quality. As for the deck, at the time this boat was started the yard had stopped putting cedar on the inside of the bulwarks and instead built up fiberglass, and it went from the top of the bulwarks down to the deck, across the plywood underdeck, and up and over the house to the far bulkhead IIRC. This is simple, strong, very leakproof, rotproof, low maintenance, and generally a big win over the lovely teak decks of earlier boats. Also there is no rub rail into the shelf as earlier, so no dozens of screws for water to follow in. With this design there really isn't a lot of hidden artistry - a survey should tell you everything you need to know.

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If this CG 38 is as good as it looks and has surveyed well already, then I'm thinking the only reason it may have stayed on the market so long is price. These boats are both rare and fall in a rather narrow niche, so not quite sure how to judge. Any ideas on that one?
The used sailboat market is a bit of a mess - the middle class is now hard pressed to afford a yacht and the time to enjoy it, not to mention the time and money to maintain it. Classic cruising designs are falling out of favor, and few have the interest in a boat with so much wood. So buyers are few for this type of boat. But few of them were made, at a much higher cost than this asking price, so when they come on the market in good condition they are not likely to go cheap. Part is an emotional attachment in many cases, but simply put there are very few who can afford to have a yard build such a vessel today - and they tend to buy much larger boats - so it is also a highly constrained supply.

Greg
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Old 23-06-2016, 19:34   #70
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Re: Opinion on Cape George 36

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Not so obvious at all.
It seems to me highly unlikely that the quality of the construction that can't be seen in the photos is substandard.
Greg
Sorry but there are few craftsmen that are great at all phases of construction. You may have great woodwork but crap welding. Only judge what you can see in one of these homebuilt jobs.
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Old 23-06-2016, 21:54   #71
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Re: Opinion on Cape George 36

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Apologies for bringing up a different CG for sale, but there seems to be extensive knowledge about these boats from CG owners and others on this thread.

This is a newer CG 38 I've had my eye on for at least a year now. The ad says it was built in 1992 and then says 1997 , but that it was launched in 2000. New Nanni diesel is a big plus for me, as are the FRG over plywood decks vs. teak, along with its overall well-kept looking condition (from the pics anyway, haven't seen it in person). Speaking of, why can't brokers get pics that aren't blurred, esp. for a nice boat with a $150,000 asking price?

Anyway, I'd love to get some feedback on this one. Apparently the owner is a master carpenter and finished out the interior, but I'd obviously want to know whether the owner or the factory completed some of the more critical structures. Can this be obtained, if need be, from the factory?

2000 Cape George 38 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
a few years ago I spoke with the guy that finished this boat. I think he mentioned taking three years- 97- 2000... With that time frame I'm guessing some of the heavy lifting was done in port Townsend. But then I'm slow when it comes to this kind of thing. I was curious about the cabin top traveler which is some what unique for a CG. He loved the boat, but was going in a new direction and wanted to sell. Curiously, once sold, it was not long before it came back on the market. It could be he ended up with the boat again. It may be worth talking to the broker to see. He was a real nice guy.

a call to Cape George marine works in Port Townsend might be insightful. Todd, who took over from Cecil was probably working there when this one came through.
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Old 23-06-2016, 22:42   #72
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Re: Opinion on Cape George 36

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Sorry but there are few craftsmen that are great at all phases of construction. You may have great woodwork but crap welding. Only judge what you can see in one of these homebuilt jobs.
No disagreement with your point - I would be shocked if there were any problems with the woodwork because of what I can see, but that is just the wood. In fact Cecil had a habit of waiting until the last minute to order parts, then taking what was available. On his own Tipi Haere 36', built alongside my Carina, he did spectacular woodwork then plopped a cheap plastic and aluminum deck fill in the middle of the teak deck. Personally I am not a fan of the stainless fittings he had made and have been replacing them with cast bronze. I can't remember having seen any yacht that that didn't have at least some things that could have been done better. Every builder has blind spots, not just home builders. Still, short of a close look or a survey this one looks remarkably good.

Exile: I doubt that the current owners of the yard will be able to help you. In the early '90s the yard was run by Cecil's son Brian, but that arrangement broke down so Cecil came back for awhile then sold the yard and went back to La Paz. IIRC Brian went back to NZ. 20 years later than the apparent 1992 (or 1997?) start of construction few workers are likely to remain and no one is likely to remember this particular boat. It won't hurt to ask but I wouldn't get my hopes up.

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Old 24-06-2016, 06:17   #73
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Re: Opinion on Cape George 36

You've probably seen this listing but I'll post it anyway. This one lacks the problematic teak decks & is listed at about half the price. Take another 10 to 20% off that & you've got a lot left for upgrades. Might be worth taking a look.

1979 Cape George 36 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
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Old 24-06-2016, 14:36   #74
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Re: Opinion on Cape George 36

It really depends what one is looking for. This is clearly an owner-completed boat, workmanlike but nothing like a yard-completed boat in detail. The center cockpit is unusual for a traditional boat and will not be to everyone's liking. The (probably original) Perkins 4-108 needs to be replaced - even if it runs well the parts are no longer available. The electronics are out of date - again workable but not current. In short nothing wrong with it on the face, probably great for cruising, and priced to reflect what it is - a solid cruising boat, not a show boat.

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Old 24-06-2016, 15:03   #75
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Re: Opinion on Cape George 36

Actually apples and oranges comparison. The above boat is an owner built boat with the quirks that these boats often have. Equipment is definitely high end, plastic ports, etc. Anyone seen a neon flasher depth sounder since the '70s??? Boat is setup for cold water, diesel stove, and wouldn't be easy to optimize for cruising in warmer water. Same hull as the one originally mentioned but that's the end of the comparison. There is another center cockpit boat that is even uglier for sale and maybe cheaper.

Many of the hulls were finished by owners. Some were the equals or better than the Cape George quality but not all.

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You've probably seen this listing but I'll post it anyway. This one lacks the problematic teak decks & is listed at about half the price. Take another 10 to 20% off that & you've got a lot left for upgrades. Might be worth taking a look.

1979 Cape George 36 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
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