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Old 17-06-2014, 10:44   #31
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Re: On Starboard or Port Tack?

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Originally Posted by ryon View Post
Okay, the designer calls it a ketch, and yes I know less than nothing about catboats.

Where is the spec on the masts, and who other than Ukeluthier and Gary Hoyt would call that foremast a main?
Several other posters in this thread, if you read the whole thing.
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Old 17-06-2014, 11:08   #32
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Re: On Starboard or Port Tack?

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Originally Posted by Ukeluthier View Post
Several other posters in this thread, if you read the whole thing.
We can only go with the information we have. We see a boat that appears to have equal-height masts, at least to "several other posters in this thread, if you read the whole thing".

The position of the sails and spars are clear, but does this come down to a question of mast height? Even if the fore is the teensiest bit taller, which is not apparent here or in the specs you linked, would a reasonable and prudent sailor judge it to be the main? I don't think so! In a practical situation, where there is no time to email the designer, that vessel is on a starboard tack.
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Old 17-06-2014, 11:42   #33
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Re: On Starboard or Port Tack?

I seem to remember that if there were equal height masts it is called a schooner.

This link supports that a schooner has the foremast equal or shorter than the aft mast, but also includes Hoyt's cat ketch rig as a type. It adds that if the forward mast is shorter it would be a cat schooner. The link does not address two equal height mast on a cat ketch/schooner rig. This link is not internally consistent. So you have the designer calling it a cat ketch vs tradition that says equal height makes it a schooner.


Popular Types of Sailboats Illustrated and Described in Detail


wiki also says a schooner has the fore mast no taller than the aft masts

Schooner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 17-06-2014, 12:38   #34
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Re: On Starboard or Port Tack?

Cat schooners do exist, but they're exceedingly rare.

Here is an example, also from Freedom Yachts:



I've noticed in all the pictures of cat schooners I've found that -- with the exception of junk-rigged ones -- the foresail is loose-footed, like a jib with a mast on its luff.
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Old 17-06-2014, 12:53   #35
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pirate Re: On Starboard or Port Tack?

I'd say he was running before.. but WTFDIK.... you lot are the Rool Experts..
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Old 17-06-2014, 13:13   #36
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Re: On Starboard or Port Tack?

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Originally Posted by Ukeluthier View Post
Cat schooners do exist, but they're exceedingly rare.

Here is an example, also from Freedom Yachts:



I've noticed in all the pictures of cat schooners I've found that -- with the exception of junk-rigged ones -- the foresail is loose-footed, like a jib with a mast on its luff.
Cat schooner alright, however not from Freedom Yachts.
Designed by Nigel Irens built by Covey Island Boatworks Nova Scotia. Cold-Molded wood.

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Old 17-06-2014, 15:58   #37
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Re: On Starboard or Port Tack?

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I'd say he was running before.. but WTFDIK.... you lot are the Rool Experts..
Even when running before, you are still on one tack or the other. and when converging, which tack determines the stand on vessel.
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Old 17-06-2014, 19:37   #38
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Re: On Starboard or Port Tack?

Can't we all agree that the subject boat's forward mast is a bit taller than the aft one? So, it is definitely a ketch on a port tack.

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Old 17-06-2014, 19:41   #39
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Re: On Starboard or Port Tack?

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Cat schooner alright, however not from Freedom Yachts.
Designed by Nigel Irens built by Covey Island Boatworks Nova Scotia. Cold-Molded wood.

I stand corrected.

I see now how I made the mistake... the url for the picture contained the words "Freedom Yachts," but it was from a thread on the Yacht Design forum discussing the sailing capabilities of Freedom's cat rigs.

The boat in the picture is indeed Nigel Irons' Farfarer.
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Old 17-06-2014, 20:13   #40
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Re: On Starboard or Port Tack?

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Originally Posted by Rubikoop View Post
And yes, stay the hell out of the way!!! People that sail such unconventional rigs are just not like the rest of you. :-)
Hey now. Be nice

.....oh, just now noticed what YOU'RE sailing
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Old 17-06-2014, 20:20   #41
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Re: on starboard or port tack?

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I think on the first photo the boat is DDW with the main centered. On the second photo of the boat it is on a port tack (still pretty much DDW but off just a little)
Even going dead downwind you are on one tack or another depending upon which side your main boom is on. Main boom to port you are on a starboard tack. Main boom to starboard you are on a port tack. If your main is furled and have a boomless driving sail then that is what determines your tack.

Nothing is ever simple and sometimes its only determined when the court sorts it out.
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Old 17-06-2014, 20:22   #42
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Re: On Starboard or Port Tack?

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Originally Posted by markpierce View Post
Can't we all agree that the subject boat's forward mast is a bit taller than the aft one? So, it is definitely a ketch on a port tack.

Now you bring in a third photo, AFTER posing the question. Are you saving a beam-on shot sans perspective for the last?

No. I don't agree the the fore is taller. It may very well be, but it's not clear to me from the photos. If it IS taller, the main taller than the mizzen, then yes, it's a ketch on a port tack, and a great head-scratcher of a question.
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Old 17-06-2014, 20:32   #43
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Re: On Starboard or Port Tack?

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Originally Posted by markpierce View Post
Can't we all agree that the subject boat's forward mast is a bit taller than the aft one? So, it is definitely a ketch on a port tack.

Sorry I can't agree. They look very much the same height depending upon if the shore line is horizontal. And, was this photo taken after a tack or jibe?

Anyway, weird rig. There is no such thing as a cat ketch except in a designer's and a marketer's minds.
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Old 17-06-2014, 20:57   #44
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Re: On Starboard or Port Tack?

Schooners are usually described as having a fore mast and a main mast, with the main mast being as tall as or taller than the fore mast.
Ketches are usually described as having a main mast and a mizzen mast, with the mizzen being shorter than the main.
I don't believe, however, that the definitions say no other type of vessel may have that type of rig(s).

In this case the most obvious difference is that schooners usually have headsails, while the cat ketch designs do not (therefore the cat in the name).
Also, I believe that schooners usually have their forwardmost sail (fore sail) smaller than their aftermost sail (main sail).
This is the opposite of a ketch rig, where the forward (main) sail is usually larger than the aft (mizzen) sail.
A cat ketch might have two equally sized sails, I don't know.

I hope everybody is grateful that I have resisted mentioning schooners with more than two masts.
But I can't resist for long -
Does everybody know the names of the masts on a seven masted schooner?
There is actually some argument about this, but my favorite names are:
Fore
Main
Mizzen
Frigger
Jigger
Driver
and Spanker

Serious stuff this sailing lol.
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Old 17-06-2014, 21:08   #45
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Re: On Starboard or Port Tack?

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Originally Posted by ryon View Post
Now you bring in a third photo, AFTER posing the question. Are you saving a beam-on shot sans perspective for the last?
The determination of the type of sail rig and whether it's on a port or starboard needs to be determined as the boat approaches, not after it has passed. It looked like a schooner on a starboard tack initially but rather a ketch on a port tack as it passed where the relative heights of the masts could be better assessed.
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