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Old 02-06-2010, 13:27   #106
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if I was worried about performance, Id go for a Tri or cat - even in the north.

good god. a Bennie 393. blade rudder. exposed engine shaft. lovely. been around the world? I'm afraid of freestyle climbing aren't you? BUt i guess if you have some chalk in a bag...and like hot tubs

Here are my numbers on the 393, and the 390. I actually use the 390 in my benchmark of used boat calculations as a control. You know, this is the one that was lost in 40 knt winds off of Biscayne by that idiot delivery capt?

Anyway here you go:

390...

MAXVEL: 7.73
VEL%: 1.09
SA/D: 17.92
D/L: 173.67
B/D: 36%
L/B: 2.59
Comfort: 19.8
Capsize: 2.11
Roll Period: 2.48
Roll Accel: 1.22

SCORE: 1/10

393:

MAXVEL: 7.94
VEL%: 1.09
SA/D: 18.12
D/L: 177.37
B/D: 31%
L/B: 2.7
Comfort: 22.58
Capsize: 2.02
Roll Period: 2.77
Roll Accel: .97

Score: 0/10

Takeaway whatever you like. Don't believe in numbers? Are you willing to understand them? Fine. Works for me.

The 390 only reasonable score was in B/D. The 393 failed all my reasonable ranges in a blue water sailer. It is utterly shocking.

Neither of these are good enough for me in light winds, comfortable, can handle the rolls, or are recoverable in a capsize situation.

Ignore david. He's a genius type that likes bananas on a boat

Finding the spec numbers were hard. I heard Bennie, Inc. deliberately hides specifications from customers. You have to dig for them. Not just these base numbers, but more detailed design figures that involve safety. I heard this from underwriters and nautical investigative types.
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Old 02-06-2010, 13:36   #107
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Good God Mark,
Did you read those numbers, you cant go cruising in a boat like that
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Old 02-06-2010, 13:37   #108
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Lets look at a Hallberg-Rassy 39

MAXVEL: 7.54
VEL%: 1.05
SA/D: 16.28
D/L: 308.9
B/D: 40%
L/B: 2.55
Comfort: 32.66
Capsize: 1.77
Roll Period: 3.89
Roll Accel: .49

Score: 8/10

takeaway:

Only her L/B is a bit iffy. She handles light winds terrifically, heels well, comfortable in all conditions, and is fast recovering from rolls.

Oh did i mention she is 1990 model? 20 years old? But good luck finding one...they get off market quick
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Old 02-06-2010, 13:47   #109
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Originally Posted by Randyonr3 View Post
Good God Mark,
Did you read those numbers, you cant go cruising in a boat like that
Mark can do anything he wants..with enough chalk in his bag. This isn't about Mark's choices, its about design and about old vs new boats.

Please don't marginalize or deflect...

I'd also look at used Endurance, Corbins, Najeds, Valiants, Amphitrite 43, Caliber 40, Cabo Rico, Contest, Crealock, Esprit, Farr PH, Garcia, Goderich, Hinkley, Hylas, Kauilani, Little Habour, Morris, Regina, PSC, Passport, Ocean Cruising, Outbound, Kanter and so on and so forth, in that size range before a

<|BENNIE>....(sink)
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Old 02-06-2010, 15:24   #110
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Isn't this whole debate about "ifs". If the boat wasn't maintained, if it is a poor design, if it was good build quality to start, if you're going to keep it X years, if you don't to do the maintenance, if you are willing to let it fall apart,......etc.

To my thinking the age of the boat isn't a real factor. I'm going to spend X dollars. With that I'm going to look for the boat that best meets my needs and wants and is in the best condition for the money! In the end quality always matters and can be worth spending for a refit. A refit POS boat is just lipstick on a pig, it's still a pig!
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Old 02-06-2010, 15:32   #111
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sorry Don. You're wrong. You are generalizing. You need to look at the boat in the market. Lipstick I would say are things like: Microwaves; stereos, fidges...oooh look. Lipstick.

Look at the design. Major systems. The rest is nonsense.

HR 39...nice boat. Right? am I right? Look at it.

There are always IFs'

IF I had a million dollars
IF my wifey doesnt leave me with my million dollars
IF I dont get cancer or a brain hemmorage or stoke getting a million dollars
IF i learn that I hated teh Bennie I bought because I didnt know better and didnt shop around and sail a few other "classic" bluewater yachts.
IF whatever

then i can buy a nicey new boat and oh so good lalalaa...

IF's play at both ends...

Cancel the constants just like in physics.

BTW SaltyMonkey is NOT by any means of the stretch the only person on this planet that feels this way.
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Old 02-06-2010, 15:44   #112
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No I don't think I'm wrong! I just said don't put lipstick on a pig and expect something other than a pig. My boat doesn't have any lipstick but could use some. if it is was just new lipstick I wouldn't have gotten it.

I find myself liking a 1985 boat over a 1995 one for the same money because under the lipstick it wasn't a pig to start with.
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Old 02-06-2010, 16:08   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post

I find myself liking a 1985 boat over a 1995 one for the same money because under the lipstick it wasn't a pig to start with.
Well...i think i understand what you are saying. And I agree.

I dunno...is a 1972 Contessa 32 a pig? I guess it depends on the Contessa in the market? I certainly wouldn't turn one down if it was good underneath and this is what I wanted in a boat - size, volume etc.
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Old 02-06-2010, 16:33   #114
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I dunno...is a 1972 Contessa 32 a pig?
In a word, yes. Contessas were lovingly designed by creative, sensitive people, and lovingly built, and made lots of sailors happy in their day, but they sail like pigs. Downwind when it's blowing old boots, they're fine (like anything which can get enough canvas up; there are no aerodynamics involved). Otherwise, they are a whole bunch of wetted surface needing a lot of force to get them going, and being totally unwilling to go anywhere vaguely in the direction of the wind. Besides that, they are extremely cramped below. I know; I've sailed them. You would make a big mistake to turn down a good Bene in favor of a Contessa. One would do so, only for the sake of a good pose, which is bad rationale for choosing equipment for going to sea.
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Old 02-06-2010, 16:47   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
Mark can do anything he wants..with enough chalk in his bag. This isn't about Mark's choices, its about design and about old vs new boats.

Please don't marginalize or deflect...

I'd also look at used Endurance, Corbins, Najeds, Valiants, Amphitrite 43, Caliber 40, Cabo Rico, Contest, Crealock, Esprit, Farr PH, Garcia, Goderich, Hinkley, Hylas, Kauilani, Little Habour, Morris, Regina, PSC, Passport, Ocean Cruising, Outbound, Kanter and so on and so forth, in that size range before a

<|BENNIE>....(sink)
This is getting silly. You are mixing up totally different classes of boats. Najad, Contest, Hinkley, Hylas, Morris, Passport -- are not in your price range at whatever age, and it is ridiculous to compare them to any Beneteau. Hallberg Rassy for that matter, although the Enderlin designs are pigs to sail and would not make you happy even if you could afford one. This whole discussion is based on fantasies and too much Googling. Good on you for drawing us into it. The Internet is not the sea.
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Old 02-06-2010, 16:48   #116
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Oh Dockhead, you are such a meanie. You must have been jilted by some beautiful red haired lass who ran off in a Contessa 32.
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Old 02-06-2010, 16:50   #117
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Benes are flimsey and poorly balanced hulls compared to Contessas. Don't like not being allowed to leave the helm for a milisecond without her broaching, as is the case with Benes but not Contessas
Forget the Benes, get a properly balanced hull shape.
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Old 02-06-2010, 16:58   #118
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Benes are flimsey and poorly balanced hulls compared to Contessas. Don't like not being allowed to leave the helm for a milisecond without her broaching, as is the case with Benes but not Contessas
Forget the Benes, get a properly balanced hull shape.
Did you ever sail a Bene?

They are indeed somewhat flimsy. And I hate the disgusting artificial wood soles.

But they sail like a bat out of hell. I have spent a few weeks chartering them. Ten days in the Aegean in a Bene 431 under a fierce Meltemi wind -- 45 knots sustained (oddly, no gusts) most days and a big sea running down the Gulf of Gocek. Anywhere more than 30 degrees abaft the beam, she would surf, and we had some passages with an average speed over 10 knots. No hint of broaching or any other unpleasantness. The hull flexed a lot in the big seas, which I did not like. But the balance and stability -- in fact all of the sailing qualities -- were fabulous. A universe away from any Contessa, which I have also sailed.

I wouldn't have one if I could afford something better, but otherwise -- with pleasure. Great boats for what they are.
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Old 02-06-2010, 17:16   #119
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I have been on a Bennie. They are horribly ugly and I felt like trash after I was on one. Also those plastic cats I see all the time. More important...all of my sailor friends hate them as much as I do.

I cannot imagine a Bennie owner even contemplating putting in a composting toilet or going to a consignment shop. I suppose they also have maids to clean their interiors. Then again, I don't hang around Bennie owners at all. Even when I was race crewing.

As I said, if I wanted to go fast I would get a 40' tri and do 18 kts in 20 kts of wind. Well, when I was on one we hit 18 but I have no idea what the wind speed was. It was terror and a fun ride. However, I could not figure out how to steer the damn thing.

If I wanted a mono hull for racing of that sort I'd get something along the lines of a Togo II shape but larger - you know...twin fin rudder...they are not sailing boats they are surf boards.

Good luck in a GALE. Ok i said it. not a measly 45. anything sails well in 45.

Have you ever been on a tri?

I think you have been on that island too long and need a real sail...

PS whats your Moody like?
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Old 02-06-2010, 17:42   #120
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Originally Posted by Randyonr3 View Post
Making a blanket statment like that only shows your ignorance, and while those of us are cruising around the world in our bennies, you still set there with your stack of cruising books and latest issue of lattitude 38 and wishing, dont hate us because we're doing what you dream of..
Agreed. I think it shows ignorance and an ego tied up in brand names.
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