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Old 31-05-2010, 11:05   #76
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Seriously, let me point this out. This is getting too personal. Argue the points, not the poster.
Ditto
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Old 31-05-2010, 13:29   #77
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Hinckley are exceptionally well built boats but they are grossly pricey. Much of the cost of Hinckley is woodwork on deck. Unfortunately, think a lot more of the cost is just in the name. A Hinckley would be the last boat I'd take cruising. Would consider one for a daysailor and short cruises but never for serious cruising.

Cruising boats take a lot of crap out there in the real world. Sun 7/365 and the insults of dinghys, hardware, deck gear, etc. make keeping it looking Bristol nearly impossible. Docks, decrepit or otherwise, pilings, anchor gear, other peoples dinghys, etc take the toll on the topside. Dings in the varnish, mean constant sanding down to wood and recoating with 5 or more coats of varnish a constant battle. High end boats with lots of wood are for the ultra rich who hire all the maintenance done.

Do yourself a favor and buy a quality boat with a minimum of on deck wood. You can probably afford a year of cruising for the money you will save. You will also the cruise way more as you won't be constantly paranoid about the dings and bangs of cruising reality.
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Old 31-05-2010, 13:58   #78
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Hinckley are exceptionally well built boats but they are grossly pricey. Much of the cost of Hinckley is woodwork on deck. Unfortunately, think a lot more of the cost is just in the name. A Hinckley would be the last boat I'd take cruising. Would consider one for a daysailor and short cruises but never for serious cruising.

Cruising boats take a lot of crap out there in the real world. Sun 7/365 and the insults of dinghys, hardware, deck gear, etc. make keeping it looking Bristol nearly impossible. Docks, decrepit or otherwise, pilings, anchor gear, other peoples dinghys, etc take the toll on the topside. Dings in the varnish, mean constant sanding down to wood and recoating with 5 or more coats of varnish a constant battle. High end boats with lots of wood are for the ultra rich who hire all the maintenance done.

Do yourself a favor and buy a quality boat with a minimum of on deck wood. You can probably afford a year of cruising for the money you will save. You will also the cruise way more as you won't be constantly paranoid about the dings and bangs of cruising reality.

From Practical Sailor re the Hinckley Bermuda 40 :
"Critics are quick to complain that other builders produce boats that are just as good for less money.More often than not,these sentiments are just sour grapes from people who can't afford a Hinckley or even a different brand of comparable quality.While we acknowledge that there are a few builders around the world which build boats to the same exacting level,Hinckley is nonetheless unique in North American boatbuilding."
Practical Sailor concluded:
"Obviously,Hinckleys aren't for everyone.They are expensive and only you can decide whether the many little quality details are worth the cost. As one owner said,"The B40 is to be bought on the day that the full significance of 'you only have one life to live' becomes clear."

"Much of the cost of Hinckley is woodwork on deck. Unfortunately,think a lot more of the cost is just the name".

Roverhi, not to be rude but how many Hinckleys have you sailed and cruised on ? I'm on my second. I live a 3 1/2 hour drive from the Hinckley yard and have spent alot of time there. I know Hinckleys. I cruise mine extensively. I'm out in the real world. There may be some boats as good but none better.
By the way....I'm not ultra rich. I work on my boat and enjoy it. I live in the country and drive a 2003 Subaru.
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Old 31-05-2010, 14:13   #79
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My wife and I are transitioning to permanent live aboard status. Retired and anxious to be able to get away from the consumer lifestyle. That said we are in the process of buying a boat and have been literally spending hours each day researching. We have found numerous boats and good deals out there. After all is considered we have decided that a Hinckley is the best boat for us. We are in the negotiation for one now. I would say that loving the boat we are on is very important since we will be spending all our time with her. Just as important is her ability to take us where we want to go. An experienced boat surveyor who has circumnavigated the globe three times recently told us the importance of considering the way you intend to use the boat when you select one. Since two of us have to take turns on watch two of the most important criteria are; can the off watch person get sleep and get fed while underway. A galley you can cook in while heeled, and a berth that is parallel to the center line of the boat and as close to amidship as possible. Typical forward v-berths can be very bouncy at sea. A berth perpendicular to the centerline as many aft berths are means you are nearly standing up or upside down. Not very comfortable. The Hinckley we are looking at meets both these criteria with secure amidship berth bunks and a functional but small galley. Different in the Hinckley are the appearance or lack of, creature comforts. I say appearance because I have never found a two inch thick foam cushion to be comfortable for more than an hour anyway. We like the straight forward simplicity executed with quality craftsmanship. IMHO.
Good luck. I retired early four years ago. Spend much of May to Oct cruising our B40. Buy the Hinckley...you won't regret it.
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Old 01-06-2010, 00:34   #80
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Originally Posted by roverhi View Post

Cruising boats take a lot of crap out there in the real world. Sun 7/365 and the insults of dinghys, hardware, deck gear, etc. make keeping it looking Bristol nearly impossible. Docks, decrepit or otherwise, pilings, anchor gear, other peoples dinghys, etc take the toll on the topside. Dings in the varnish, mean constant sanding down to wood and recoating with 5 or more coats of varnish a constant battle. High end boats with lots of wood are for the ultra rich who hire all the maintenance done.


I haven't heard this attitude on here before and its probably worth examining.

Part of cruising long range is putting the boat into awfully difficult situations. Just anchoring every night in a new location is risky; getting into one of those idyllic coral lagoons is a gamble; the low risk of 'misadventure', low but the risk is there.

The un-fun bit of cruising is always worrying about bumping the boat, let alone loosing it.
If the boat is 100% of your assets then its even worse! Lose the boat and your life is stuffed! But a boat worth 10% of your assets is, more or less, expendable.

Few fit into either category, but a few percentage either way starts to capture folks.

Sea Life aint expendable, but I don't have to scare myself stupid whenever another boat anchors within 200 meters!

And that correlates to more fun cruising and thats the whole idea: to have fun


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Old 01-06-2010, 05:22   #81
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If the boat is 100% of your assets then its even worse! Lose the boat and your life is stuffed! But a boat worth 10% of your assets is, more or less, expendable...
I like that… I don’t consider myself a careless skipper (although others may disagree…) but I’ve run aground, or at least nudged the bottom, more than I care to admit (thankfully never on coral or rock) because I seem to have a penchant for sneaking up shallow creeks, or whatever, and occasionally after dark – one day I may buy a depth finder (truly), but I’m afraid it’ll keep me out of more anchorages than allow me into. I guess I like a hardy but modestly-priced boat that doesn’t carry with it the threat of imminent financial devastation if I screw up. So far the worst I’ve ever done is to scrape off some bottom paint, but I can imagine I’d change my ways if…
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Old 01-06-2010, 16:34   #82
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- - I hate to bust anybody's bubble but full time cruising is NOT fun. It is a lot of work and a lot of frustration. Say you live in an apartment and think - gee wouldn't it be fun if we had our own house? After you get the house there is not much "fun" in maintaining it. Same with boats. The older the boat the more hassles and time you have to spend hanging upside down in the bilge changing out worn out or defective pumps, filters, and other hundreds of assorted items.
- - The only way to minimize the grief and time spent keeping yourself afloat and operating is to buy as new a boat as possible - preferably a reputable brand new boat. You can two or maybe three years of reasonable maintenance-free operation out of a new boat before systems start to fail.
- - Worrying about bumper boats in an anchorage or hitting bottom is the least of your bothers. As an experienced cruiser you just do not go where such things are a problem. You have too many other problems to take on stupid ones.
- - Having shackles let loose on your anchors/rode/halyards,booms, etc. or a windlass fail are more immediate. Pumps fail always just as you have left one country and are ready to anchor in another. Another $400 down the drain as you are not going to turn around and go back. Electrical systems are particularly major headaches including electronics. Cruisers seem to spend more time and energy tending to bad batteries than anything else. The whole boat revolves around a supply of electricity. Prices of windgen's, solar arrays, and gensets reflect this by doubling in price or more as more cruisers want them.
- - Life on an older boat is like life with an older spouse - patch, patch, patch. The standard not-so-humorous joke amongst cruisers is that we don't sail from exotic island to another exotic island but from one repair facility/boat parts supplier to another.
- - As was stated the Sun, the massive oceans, and lack of any quality control in the manufacturing of marine parts means constant repairs and replacements. It is as brutal out there as it is for NASA and the Space Shuttle in orbit. At least with a new boat you can get a few years of not having to deal with too many mechanical problems. With an older boat you simply take up where the last owner left off. All older boats are sold "as is, where is" for a very serious reason. At least with a brand new boat you get a period of warranty from the manufacturer - no such animal with used/old boats.
- - The driving force for going cruisers is the knowledge and feeling of being in command of your own fate and life along with some opportunities to do some visiting in places you could never get to as a land dweller. But the day of "fun" touring and exploring is sandwiched in between 2 or 4 days of repairs. There is a sense/awareness of liberty and freedom, even with our constant hassles of maintenance, that makes it all worthwhile. Until the frig fails and the batteries short out in a distant anchorage - then maybe life on land is not all that bad after all?
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Old 01-06-2010, 16:40   #83
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Now I'm just bummed.

Except for this - "Life on an older boat is like life with an older spouse - patch, patch, patch"
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Old 01-06-2010, 16:48   #84
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It depends on how well the old boat was maintained and when the last refit was. An older boat could have less maintenance problems that a cheaply constructed new boat.
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Old 01-06-2010, 17:25   #85
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It depends on how well the old boat was maintained and when the last refit was. An older boat could have less maintenance problems that a cheaply constructed new boat.
And that you will very likely never know. Few if any records as kept or even made available during the purchase process of an older boat. You will not be told of anything that you do not specifically ask about. Not much different than buying a used car. It will be up to you alone to sniff out every nook, cranny, systems, bulkhead, etc., etc.
- - Currently there are hundreds of Hurricane Ivan boats on the used boat market that were "glued" back together and no mention is being made to prospective buyers that the boat was in Hurricane Ivan - or any other major incident. You really have to know how to examine and where to look to see the evidence of broken tabbing, split bulkheads or patched sides.
- - Just like an old house full of termites - a few coats of Sears' Best paint and it looks great . . . There are no laws requiring disclosure and "offshore" purchases are a real "Las Vegas" gamble. Over 20 years I have seen too many new owners sitting on the ground in a boatyard with their head in their hands crying after they sand off the bottom paint and find rusted out plates or do some wood hull re-caulking and find worms everywhere. Same for FRG, hull fractures, or even major hull rebuilds are done by "cheap" untrained 3rd world workers and then given a great "Awlgrip" topcoat. What was that guy who lost his boat just off Bermuda? Bulkheads were not attached and the rigging went wild, or something . . . .
- - Buy new from a reputable boat manufacturer if at all possible. Even go smaller if necessary.
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Old 01-06-2010, 17:59   #86
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but i cant afford a NEW BOAT!!! What is this insanity abut NEW BOATS BEING BETTER IF YOU HAVE NO MONEY!!!! HAVING A BOAT AT ALL IS BETTER! ARRRG!
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Old 01-06-2010, 18:00   #87
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"Same for FRG, hull fractures, or even major hull rebuilds are done by "cheap" untrained 3rd world workers and then given a great "Awlgrip" topcoat. What was that guy who lost his boat just off Bermuda? Bulkheads were not attached and the rigging went wild, or something . . . ."

And who do you think layed up the hull on that new boat.???? I can guarantee it wasn't some journeyman ship wright.

By the time a boat is 10 years old, most, if not all the original systems are running on borrowed time. So the condition of the boat is the real qualifier and that's what surveyors get paid for. If the boat was laid up properly and hardware installed properly, the hull and deck shouldn't be a problem. The engine may have a bunch of hours left on it or it may be succumbing to disuse, the prime failure component in sailboat engines. The electronics will be old and be in need of replacing simply because they are outdated. Sails will probably be original and may or may not be in decent condition. Rigging will be approaching it's reliable life span and the list goes on. Yes, there is some grace period with a new boat but it isn't much more than a couple of years before things start going south and need work. Personally, I'd find a boat that is more than 10 years old that I like and then look for one that has had systems replaced/upgraded or the price is discounted to pay for things that are needed.

On my current boat, I've easily spent as much redoing things, most because I wanted to and some because I needed to, as I originally paid for the boat. It came with a lot of cruising equipment that I've kept and had a newish diesel. So I now have a boat whose wear limited items are mostly new and/or thoroughly gone over to ensure their condtion. The hull still needs to be Awl gripped but I'll do that when I'm through cruising, don't want to be paranoid about protecting the finish. I've got a boat that is more reliable than a new boat and I know all the systems so if anything does go wrong, it won't be a problem to fix it.

With the purchase price and rehab/upgrades I'm into the boat for about a 1/3rd of what a new boat would have cost. But the real plus is I don't have one of those fat assed, butt ugly new boats. I've got a boat with great lines, easy to sail, that I get compliments on almost everyday.

If money is no object, new boats are great. I've owned 3 in my life. Actually made money on all of them but had inflation to thank for that. In todays boating world, new is probhibitively expensive for those of us who want to cruise. A quality used boat that is bought right and you upgrade, offers a much better investment (is it against the law to use investment when referring to a boat??).
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Old 01-06-2010, 20:39   #88
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but i cant afford a NEW BOAT!!! What is this insanity abut NEW BOATS BEING BETTER IF YOU HAVE NO MONEY!!!! HAVING A BOAT AT ALL IS BETTER! ARRRG!
The title of this particular thread is ** Older vs Newer Boat for Future Cruising **

- - Start a new thread if you want to discuss how to afford an older boat. Actually there already are some of those.- - There are plenty of new cruisers coming into the Caribbean and on to the Pacific with brand new boats, especially catamarans.
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Old 01-06-2010, 21:16   #89
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The title of this particular thread is ** Older vs Newer Boat for Future Cruising **

- - Start a new thread if you want to discuss how to afford an older boat. Actually there already are some of those.- - There are plenty of new cruisers coming into the Caribbean and on to the Pacific with brand new boats, especially catamarans.
osirissail don't tell me what to do. Start your own thread.

Your comment makes no sense. I have NO problem affording an OLD boat. I have problems with buying a NEW boat. I also have problems with your comment about buying a NEW boat under the pretension that its is better than an OLD one. That isn't so especially in todays manufacturing and with all the costs you need to consider to kink out the bugs. There are plenty of great boats that are USED on the market. I could also say it's just as valid "buy the best used boat you can possibly afford". Just because there are people crying in the yard doesn't validate anything - they could have bought the "cheapest boats they could find and tried to save money and got burned". I could just as easily say here that there are more people who have used boats that are satisfied and happy, and there are a tons of NEW boat people who are crying their eyes out sitting in the yard when they realize the depreciation and wasted money they spent over the years.

But, are we talking 10 years from now? Then it might some sense to think about this. But todays boat purchase doesn't guarantee that boat is going to be good for you and your sailing in 10 years time. So then we are back to square one in 10 years. You have a used boat you need to dump, and what? Are you going to buy a new one again...or another used one? What have you gained exactly?

I say if you are leaving in 10 years, buy some cheap boat now and be a better sailor, save your money and see where you are in 10 years - new or old. Otherwise, you better be damn sure the boat you buy today is what you need 10 years from now and it sails the way you need it. Then of course all your systems in 10 years time will need replacing and you will also need the repair and overhaul that naturally will happen and need to be done for an extended trip. You'd actually be buying two boats not one right now. A new one + an old one (10 years + refit for another 10).
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Old 01-06-2010, 21:42   #90
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I am currently completing the sale of my 31'Beneteau. Our plan is to buy a 43'-47' boat for coastal cruising in about 10 years (my retirement). Our budget is 100K - 200K.

My choices are to buy an 80's cruising boat (1983 C&C Landfall cc) and refurbish it or buy a MUCH newer Beneteau (42 cc 2004) that is fully equipped and just finished doing the exact cruising im interested in and keep it maintained for our futuer cruise.

I figure I will spend 200K with either boat.

I was talking to the surveyor at my haul out yesterday and his advise was to buy the newest boat I can afford.

Any opinions?
Lets see the OP asked for opinions about which is better - the newest possible boat or a much older boat. The professional advice was to go with the newest possible which includes up to a brand new boat is it fits the budget.

So I am sending my opinion to the OP - that he should go with his surveyor's advice and go as new as possible. Actually being out here cruising for 19 years and also working on cruiser's boat, my real life experience is that folks are a lot happier with the newest boat they can afford versus an older boat. That's the real world.
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