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Old 15-03-2010, 08:28   #61
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No one ever said, when lying on his deathbed, "You know, I should have spent more time at the office."
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Old 15-03-2010, 12:20   #62
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With any used boat the saying that best applies is "you aren't buying the boat your buying the previous owner(s)".
Great time to be buying. Buying an older boat was all I could manage given the money I had up front and the fact that I wasn't interested in buying on time.
I was able to take advantage of the situation where the well-to-do owner invested a lot in upgrades then needed to get out from under it quickly since his misstress who he bought it for found out about his wife and bailed so I got it very resonably. As yet I am in it for 5,000 and am looking at another 5 to really get her ready for blue water so by doing everything myself and shopping parts very aggresively I will have spent as much on refurb as the boat cost initialy.
BUT I have learned A LOT about what it really means to be a self reliant long term voyager which was my goal in buying; I know the boat and it's systems really really well and have plenty of new skills.
Not to mention a pride of ownership that does not come when you just through money at problems (not that I wouldn't like to do that often enough!!).
How much do ya expect or want to get your hands dirty? How involved do you care/need to be in the boat's systems etc.
As Brent suggests living aboard is also going to affect the equasion.
I think it only gets really depressing when you can't sail and all your doing is repairs/upgrades.
Good luck!
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Old 15-03-2010, 14:18   #63
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Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post

My brother-in-law, an experienced sailor, gave me good advice. He said, don't buy a boat unless you love it, because the costs of owning a boat are outrageous, and you will resent every dollar unless you love the boat.
I am going to start using this one!

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I just got confirmation that the sale is final, so now the fun begins.
What did you get?

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Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
No one ever said, when lying on his deathbed, "You know, I should have spent more time at the office."
My Father uses this all the time..............and now so do I.



Dergon_gf (to become mrs_dergon in September) and I spent three years trying to find our first sailboat. I had the *fortunate* experience of having bought my first powerboat brand new. I say *fortunate" because I got to learn the lesson of "even a new boat isn't hassle free" with a smaller number of $$ on my first purchased boat.....that made it a lot easier to decide to go with the older boat when we final bought sail.

I had a similar choice to choice with my $$$s ......mid 80s for about $0.5x or early 2000s Beneteua etc fo $1.0x . Deciding to go with the '85 Tartan so far has been wonderful. I feel as if the older boat has a soul and called to us. By the time we are doing getting her up to date, we'll have only saved a small amount, but I think we'll be happier for it.
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Old 15-03-2010, 14:27   #64
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YOU built your own boat, huh? YOU walked to the forest ( someone else's forest, I guess, unless you own a few hundred acres?) and YOU felled trees with a hand ax ( nobody who works a month a year built that chainsaw) and ripped those trees into planks, and planed them by hand. No power tools, of course. Because lets face it, nobody who worked one month a year in their lives designed and built an electric plant and ran the transmission lines to where you wanted to work. Forget the power tools. Gosh, how many years does it take to cut timber, cure it, and build a boat working one month a year?

Just curious, but do you walk everywhere you go? How does it feel not ever being able to experience riding in an airplane from one continent to another?

No, you are totally full of it. You are the example of someone who lives off the production of other people. The classic fable the Grasshopper and the Ant, except in your case you somehow figure you get to use the results of the ant's efforts while rubbing his face in it.

Hey, just curious, how long does it take you to weave a sail, after you invent the loom, and pick the cotton, and make the thread, ......working one month a year?

You think you are some kind of hero for sponging off the efforts of millions of other people over the years. Well, it's called freeloading. Or some might compare it to the lifestyle of a tick.

You degrinate the "work ethic" that made it possible for you to live like a spoiled brat, calling it the greed ethic. In the meantime, you reap the benefits that result from the productive lives of people like the rest of us. Who finally get to start living the sailing life when we reach our late 50's and early 60's. And you come on here extolling the virtues of your non-productive life. Well, do the math, if everyone was like you,
we would all still be living in caves.

You damned sure wouldn't be polishing the stainless fittings someone else produced and wearing clothing someone else produced, while you typed on the internet someone else produced, and preached in a forum using software someone else produced.

Like it or not, the word for someone who works four weeks out of 52 and bums around the rest of the time is not the new messiah.
You remind me of the old Scot I met in the Marquesas decades ago. When he quit his job in Squamish to sail with his family across the Pacific , his boss said " I believe man was meant to serve." Greg responded with "I don't know who has been serving me. I feel like I've been screwed." His boss, with his brain cast in the impenetrable epoxy called "Consumer Groupthink," didn't; even vaguely comprehend. If I spend my life on the treadmill ,who will I be supporting and empowering. The bank managers of AIG , etc? What do they produce to justify their billion dollar bonuses?
Many sponge off the advances in metal boatbuilding that I have developed, reducing the time for building a steel hull and decks by 90%. I'm happy to be of service.
How many cruisers on this site are insulted by the suggestion that, when they take time out , off the treadmill of greed and consumerism, to take their families cruising, are being "Irresponsible parasites," for not supporting AIG managers, and others like them? It's like you Canibul , trying to promote anti semitism in a synogogue. You are calling most of the cruisers on this site Parasites and bums for not spending their entire lives on the treadmill.
Given the freedom those who preceded us have given us with their efforts, it would also be insulting to not take advantage of what they have given us , like throwing a gift in the garbage. Our ancestors invented to give us a better life , not to squander what they have given us, by ignoring it,.

Boats built before 1979 were built at a time when materials and labour were cheap and no one completely trusted fibreglass. You couldn't afford to build a boat that well today without spending a fortune. Crealock tried, and they were very expensive. You can buy just as well built a boat from the older boat market at a fraction the cost.
When I fist came to the coast, its lucky for me I didn't have the money to simply gp out, buy a boat then set sail. Man the trouble I would have got into! In the time it tok me to get enougnh money to buiold aboat and get cruising I learned a lot. When you buy a fixer upper, what you learn will last you a lifetime and make you far more self reliant than you would ever be if you simply buy a boat and spend your time on the treadmill doing something that has nothing to do with boats. Guys who do that are useless when anything goes wrong and don't have the tools or knowledge to deal with it .
Using what's already there is far more evironmentally friendly than scrapping it then building all over again. That type of behavior is a threat to us all, and totally irresponsible.
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Old 15-03-2010, 17:44   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
You remind me of the old Scot I met in the Marquesas decades ago. When he quit his job in Squamish to sail with his family across the Pacific , his boss said " I believe man was meant to serve." Greg responded with "I don't know who has been serving me. I feel like I've been screwed." His boss, with his brain cast in the impenetrable epoxy called "Consumer Groupthink," didn't; even vaguely comprehend. If I spend my life on the treadmill ,who will I be supporting and empowering. The bank managers of AIG , etc? What do they produce to justify their billion dollar bonuses?
Many sponge off the advances in metal boatbuilding that I have developed, reducing the time for building a steel hull and decks by 90%. I'm happy to be of service.
How many cruisers on this site are insulted by the suggestion that, when they take time out , off the treadmill of greed and consumerism, to take their families cruising, are being "Irresponsible parasites," for not supporting AIG managers, and others like them? It's like you Canibul , trying to promote anti semitism in a synogogue. You are calling most of the cruisers on this site Parasites and bums for not spending their entire lives on the treadmill.
Given the freedom those who preceded us have given us with their efforts, it would also be insulting to not take advantage of what they have given us , like throwing a gift in the garbage. Our ancestors invented to give us a better life , not to squander what they have given us, by ignoring it,.

Boats built before 1979 were built at a time when materials and labour were cheap and no one completely trusted fibreglass. You couldn't afford to build a boat that well today without spending a fortune. Crealock tried, and they were very expensive. You can buy just as well built a boat from the older boat market at a fraction the cost.
When I fist came to the coast, its lucky for me I didn't have the money to simply gp out, buy a boat then set sail. Man the trouble I would have got into! In the time it tok me to get enougnh money to buiold aboat and get cruising I learned a lot. When you buy a fixer upper, what you learn will last you a lifetime and make you far more self reliant than you would ever be if you simply buy a boat and spend your time on the treadmill doing something that has nothing to do with boats. Guys who do that are useless when anything goes wrong and don't have the tools or knowledge to deal with it .
Using what's already there is far more evironmentally friendly than scrapping it then building all over again. That type of behavior is a threat to us all, and totally irresponsible.

Well said, agree 100%...

As far as the new vs. old question goes, I treat buying a liveaboard as i would a house. Years ago i bought a block of land and put a brand new house on it, the gardens where bare and it took years to get them established with trees and plants, the whole time it just felt soulless.

Eventually i sold that house and bought an established property with huge trees and established gardens, while it was not exactly how i wanted it, it took little time and effort to change that, and it felt comfortable from day one.

In other words i look for a older boat with as close to what i want on it already, then add or change to suit my needs, i find this cheaper (i do all the work myself) than shelling out the big dollars on a new boat of the equivalent size....
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Old 15-03-2010, 19:33   #66
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Like it or not, the word for someone who works four weeks out of 52 and bums around the rest of the time is not the new messiah.
Yeah, he's not the Messiah he's a very naughty boy

FWIW unfortunately I average higher than 4 weeks a year and I ain't happy with that level of commitment - but I simply lack the motivation in present times to work less, working beats having to get off me arse go do something interesting with my life.

The good news is that truth be told though it don't really matter for the future of mankind whether in fact I work 24/7/365 or 1 day a year as I largely wander around various companies shuffling meaningless bits of paper around whilst trying to persuade folks not to shoot themselves in the feet........usually unsuccesfully , but that don't matter as I long ago stopped truly caring. But, hey, it's the modern economy

I don't make my own Aluminium either . nor am I ever likely to invent hover boots - albeit I do have a revolutionary Disposble and Reusable Paint Brush kicking around my head ...........that will probably never see the light of day
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Old 16-03-2010, 05:12   #67
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- albeit I do have a revolutionary Disposble and Reusable Paint Brush kicking around my head ...........that will probably never see the light of day

just for some thread drift.....I would surely like to see one of these!
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Old 16-03-2010, 15:55   #68
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Seriously, let me point this out. This is getting too personal. Argue the points, not the poster.
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Old 17-03-2010, 11:27   #69
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No one ever said, when lying on his deathbed, "You know, I should have spent more time at the office."
You got that right.
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Old 17-03-2010, 13:58   #70
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A friend on one of my of my 36 footers got it right when he said "This is not a rehearsal. Screw up this life, and you don't get to do a rerun" He then did a circumnavigation. Wise move.
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Old 17-03-2010, 19:13   #71
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I find great pleasure in the refit and advancement of my boat. It's only 15 years old and I am the dummy who gets to do the refit. That's work by the way, hard dirty and smelly. I am the one who will benefit from it in many ways. I think it important to know what you want. For some it's a turn key weekender or a racer. For others it's challenging nature in a boat. If it creates passion and a zest for life, that's a good thing. A boat is a tool that manufactures happiness, just get the right tool for the job you want to do. Cost matters but it is not the heart of the matter. Re sale? Not if I can help it.

Human beings work, they work naturally for their own reasons. When they are compelled to work by others or the results of their labor is stolen (by whatever means) it's called by many names that are synonomous with evil.

Cheers
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Old 18-03-2010, 14:31   #72
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A ferind once said "I realised I'm never happier than when I'm working on my boat."
When I spend several days puttering on my boat ,without setting foot ashore, I'm as happy as I have ever been.
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Old 31-05-2010, 08:50   #73
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Could not agree more

My wife and I are transitioning to permanent live aboard status. Retired and anxious to be able to get away from the consumer lifestyle. That said we are in the process of buying a boat and have been literally spending hours each day researching. We have found numerous boats and good deals out there. After all is considered we have decided that a Hinckley is the best boat for us. We are in the negotiation for one now. I would say that loving the boat we are on is very important since we will be spending all our time with her. Just as important is her ability to take us where we want to go. An experienced boat surveyor who has circumnavigated the globe three times recently told us the importance of considering the way you intend to use the boat when you select one. Since two of us have to take turns on watch two of the most important criteria are; can the off watch person get sleep and get fed while underway. A galley you can cook in while heeled, and a berth that is parallel to the center line of the boat and as close to amidship as possible. Typical forward v-berths can be very bouncy at sea. A berth perpendicular to the centerline as many aft berths are means you are nearly standing up or upside down. Not very comfortable. The Hinckley we are looking at meets both these criteria with secure amidship berth bunks and a functional but small galley. Different in the Hinckley are the appearance or lack of, creature comforts. I say appearance because I have never found a two inch thick foam cushion to be comfortable for more than an hour anyway. We like the straight forward simplicity executed with quality craftsmanship. IMHO.
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Old 31-05-2010, 10:29   #74
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...
Natives on the BC coast had to work three months a year gathering food, the rest was playtime. ...
What horsesh**T! Do your anthropological homework. Natives on the BC had to work 385 days a year gathering food, making tools/flintknapping, building and taking care of their shelters, making watercraft, brain tanning hides, burying their 40 year old grandmothers who died from poor health, and countless other tasks unrelated to getting food...that could only be done by a unit of between 20-120 people...not that unlike those 2 Worst Marine junkies in a marina who decided they wanted a boat and all the RV condiments that go along with it.

Buy an old boat with as best basic systems complete you can muster - engine, rigging, sails, hull, deck. Add a few electronics, wind vane (if solo), solar / wind, oil lamp

save your money...

and go.

Oh, and btw...if you have an old boat, there is no problem in putting in old used gear...unlike a new boat in which you need to buy new gear to retain value.
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Old 31-05-2010, 10:59   #75
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Big snip....

Boats built before 1979 were built at a time when materials and labour were cheap and no one completely trusted fibreglass. You couldn't afford to build a boat that well today without spending a fortune. Crealock tried, and they were very expensive. You can buy just as well built a boat from the older boat market at a fraction the cost.
... snip
The boats of the late 60s to the late 70s were built when fiberglass was a new technology and therefore, it seems to me, overbuilt. Solid hulls and lots of reinforcement produced a boat that seems to be overly strong for the given situation. To me that's a valuable point of consideration.

I'm looking at sub-$100K boats. I've been on the high end, "blue water" builds, and the added cost gets you more than a fancy bowsprit, aft cabin windows, or Kevlar infused hull and deck. Construction and attention to detail is superb, factory support excellent, and spare parts abound. But those boats are out of my price range. And as nice as it'd be to own one, I've been to a lot of anchorages where the sub-$100K boats far outnumbered the high dollar ones, they got to that great anchorage across the same patch of water, and are just as proud of the passage and destination.

The later builds were done when the cost of petroleum based materials were much higher, the cost of labor higher, the competition tougher, but the engineering better understood. I've also seen interior layout changes that seem in direct contradiction to living on a moving platform. What happened to interior grab rails, a galley you can safely cook in while underway, and secure storage? Do you _really_ need that two full head layout at the expense of the nav station or larger saloon?

The task is to find a vessel that's sturdy and sails reasonably well. There are problems with that as well. Older boats are going to need more work to bring them to a level that compares to today's vessels. Wiring gets brittle and overloaded, plumbing gets weak, hoses get old, tankage leaks, engines need replacement, masts and rigging need work, and the stress of use can affect the structural integrity of the vessel.

Another nut to crack is where is the price break point between old and refurbish vs newer and more expensive. Both are going to cost you money; the task is to figure out which costs less, takes less time, and still gives you the most confidence or satisfaction. If you've got time and enjoy the work of refurbishing then the decision's a bit easier. If you feel the need to learn every system on the boat of your dreams, there's nothing like refurbishing to get the layout fully understood.

Older boats can be tough to refit due to parts availability. I've seen more than one owner having to do major work because the portlight/hatch/winch/? hasn't been made in decades and finding one is either impossible or costs more than the cost of the boat.

I'm not a shipwright but I do enjoy working on my boat, and learning where thing go and how things work. I've also dumped loads of money into a vessel that I should have walked away from or bought newer. I'd rather buy a boat that I can sail and work on than a boat that I have to work on before I can sail her.

Having looked at more than a few newish boats I'm amazed at the interior volume and the lack of storage, ventillation, and "thin" construction. These vessels may be great for a weekend aboard, a cruise down the coast, or an annual holiday, but for blue water, full-time liveaboard, or long distance voyaging, seem woefully inadequate, imo.

It can be extraordinarily difficult to arrange financing and insurance coverage for older vessels. This may be due to bank requirements that seem to favor new(ish) over older, believing that old is far less reliable than new. But hey, if I'm putting 50-60% down, how much of a risk is that?
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