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Old 09-03-2010, 08:27   #46
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. . . My choices are to buy an 80's cruising boat (1983 C&C Landfall cc) and refurbish it or buy a MUCH newer Beneteau (42 cc 2004) that is fully equipped and just finished doing the exact cruising im interested in and keep it maintained for our futuer cruise. . .
I was talking to the surveyor at my haul out yesterday and his advise was to buy the newest boat I can afford.
Any opinions?
Listen to your surveyor - - unless you have both the time and desire to spend significant money and time learning how to repair/refurbish/upgrade an older boat.
- - As has been expressed in this thread you will amazed at the amount of time and money you will spend "improving" the older boat. Buying a boat that is already "ready" to go will be much more economical in terms of money and time even with the costs of actually getting it "ready to go" again. Most boat systems seem to have a "clock" built into them at expires/ runs out in 10 year increments. Then you have to spend significant money to replace many basic boat systems.
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Old 12-03-2010, 16:33   #47
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Several years after I built a boat for one couple, they told me"The boat was free. With the money we saved by living aboard and the travelling we did , we could lose the boat tomorrow and we'd still be money ahead of where we'd be if we hadn't built her. What we saved in rent is still largely available in the resale value of the boat. "
My own boat has let me live off the earnings from one months work a year since my mid 20s', something I could never have done without owning a boat. I've owned my own home, debt free, since I was 22 years old, something that would be impossible for a tradesman living on land.
When you buy a new boat, double the list price by the time you have paid the interest on any loan. If an older boat lets you move aboard immediately ,debt free, you begin saving the cost of rent or mortgage payments immediately. A good portion of the cost of refurbishing will be paid for quickly by the money thus saved. Some older boats can be bought and moved aboard for less than a years rent.
When refurbishing it's very important to distinguish between necessities and luxuries. I never had power, nor GPS nor satnav, on my first two boats and 3 Pacific crossings. Never had radar until I had done 5 Pacific crossings and cruised for 26 years, the last 22 years 11 months a year. I've never had refrigeration, still don't , never will. Yet some imply that you will drop dead if you don't go into debt to get these things on board immediately, along with a lot of other luxury junk.
As I mention in my book, you can judge the value of advice by taking a critical look at what it has done for the person offering it. If he is in his 60's before he is able to leave the dock, then following his advice will get you in the same position , taking until your 60's to get free. If someone takes decades to pay of his shiny new boat, then that is where his advice will get you. If he has bottomless pockets and you don't ,then his way of doing things simply won't work for a lower income person. If someone in your income bracket gets out cruising easily ,quickly and painlessly, then he would be the best source of advice on how to accomplish the same .
Rich elitists sometimes deliberately throw a wrench to the gears of your plans, by advocating what they know damned well will sabotage your dreams, if you follow their expensive advice. Others are well meaning , but naive. .
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Old 13-03-2010, 04:18   #48
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and these people whol hire you to build them a boat, and the other people who employ you for that one month a year that you work....

are they also unemployed boat bums? Or does their lifestyle mean that they have the funds to support yours?
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Old 13-03-2010, 14:10   #49
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They aspire to be unemployed boat bums , off the treadmill, with a far more enjoyable, and environmentaly sustainable lifestyle ,as soon as they get their boat together. I encourage them, and with better building methods and priorities, enable them, and most succeed, beyond their most indolent dreams. After that ,funds available become far less relevant. This reduces their environmental footprint exponentialy.
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Old 13-03-2010, 20:51   #50
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If you plan on going cruising, have the time, are handy with tools, know how to work on equipment, have some knowledge of wiring and plumbing, are not intimidated by rigging and don't mind getting dirty and sweaty buy an old boat.
You will spend less, know where everything is, how it works and how to fix it.
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Old 13-03-2010, 21:51   #51
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Old boat.
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Old 14-03-2010, 07:22   #52
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Ah, but the point I wanted to make is.....
The boat you are on would not exist if it were built by people who were only productive one month out of twelve. If everyone on earth adopted your lifestyle, you would not be boating. There would be one boat produced every few years, and you would not be able to afford it.

SOMEONE ( i.e. almost all of us) has to be productive most of the time or there would be no consumer goods at all for people like you to enjoy.

You would have no boat. No sails. No tools, and no customers for your one month a year job, if everyone else was not working 11 months a year. Nobody else working one month a year could hire you for that one month you want to work. The stuff you enjoy just simply would not exist. No fiberglass. No gasoline. No diesel. No 5200. No lines, anchors, chain, cleats, winches, glass, paint, aluminum, steel, brass, or lumber. No radio, compass, sextants, charts, or batteries.

In other words, if we all took your example as the ideal and worked toward that, you would be wandering the forest eating bugs and fruit. And you would be fighting a few million other people for those bugs and fruit.

You could forget sailing. Everything you use in sailing, and supporting your lifestyle, was produced by people working year round. You should be a little nicer to them.
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Old 14-03-2010, 08:53   #53
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Ten years from now you may be a lot happier with a power boat. Why not spend the ten years building one?
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Old 14-03-2010, 09:06   #54
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The discussion all boils down to how much money and time you have to invest in the boat. If you are looking for a "sabbatical" boat to cruise for a couple of years or so, then buying as "new" as possible - or - a "ready to sail" boat coming off a similar type "sabbatical" cruise is the way to go.
- - It takes years and lots of money, sweat, and learning to bring an older boat up to "ready to sail." However, you will end up very educated and able to really know your boat from stem to stern. Something to be said for that if you are planning a "lifetime" of cruising.
- - It seems in the Caribbean that serious cruisers stay out at most about 5 years then head back to life on land. So investing a lot of years and money re-fitting an older boat in the end is not very cost-effective. A newer boat - especially a "cat" - will allow you to recover a significant portion of your initial investment whereas an older boat will not.
- - If you are seriously intent on cruising "around the world" then you are in a whole different category and first and foremost is finding an ocean seaworthy vessel and whether it is new or old is secondary.
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Old 14-03-2010, 11:07   #55
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- It takes years and lots of money, sweat, and learning to bring an older boat up to "ready to sail." However, you will end up very educated and able to really know your boat from stem to stern...
Rationally, recreational craft, be they 90-foot-megas or PWC, isn’t all that much about “investment…” Few of us are in the shipping business, excepting some non-registered pharmacists who probably don’t read these musings anyway, and the vessels we’re contemplating don’t lend themselves to much of a cargo payload and none of these will get us places as fast as commercial air… I think couching things in “investment” terms is something us post industrial age noodle-heads do to justify what is more of an emotional decision… That doesn’t mean we should throw caution to the wind where sea-worthiness is concerned, but it does mean that some of the hand-wringing we go through is a superfluous nuisance. Whether new, old, mono, multi, power or sail we obtain what we can/want based on right-brain romanticism and then feel compelled to justify our purchase with left-brain logic, hoping to disguise our emotional attachment and demonstrate our commonsensical competency to neighbors, colleagues and Admiral alike… old or new, messing around with boats is its own reward – or burden, depending. Buy what you want (after consulting a surveyor, your investment banker, broker, accountant and actuarial professional, of course…)
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Old 14-03-2010, 17:01   #56
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Ah, but the point I wanted to make is.....
The boat you are on would not exist if it were built by people who were only productive one month out of twelve. If everyone on earth adopted your lifestyle, you would not be boating. There would be one boat produced every few years, and you would not be able to afford it.

SOMEONE ( i.e. almost all of us) has to be productive most of the time or there would be no consumer goods at all for people like you to enjoy.

You would have no boat. No sails. No tools, and no customers for your one month a year job, if everyone else was not working 11 months a year. Nobody else working one month a year could hire you for that one month you want to work. The stuff you enjoy just simply would not exist. No fiberglass. No gasoline. No diesel. No 5200. No lines, anchors, chain, cleats, winches, glass, paint, aluminum, steel, brass, or lumber. No radio, compass, sextants, charts, or batteries.

In other words, if we all took your example as the ideal and worked toward that, you would be wandering the forest eating bugs and fruit. And you would be fighting a few million other people for those bugs and fruit.

You could forget sailing. Everything you use in sailing, and supporting your lifestyle, was produced by people working year round. You should be a little nicer to them.
The boat I'm on was built by someone who works a month a year. Me. And it does exist. Duhhh!
If all 6 billion of the worlds people worked at the same profession as you, lived in the same house as you , drove the same car as you, made love to the same woman as you,etc etc. how well would that work? Shows what a stupid arguement that is.
Everyone seeing the folly of excessive greed and materialism costing them so much of their freedom , and limited time in this life, will never happen, but some of us have to set a good example to those wise enough to figure it out.
Natives on the BC coast had to work three months a year gathering food, the rest was playtime. That is closer to what most cruisers aspire to.
Every environmental problem we face is caused by excessive materialism, and excessive population, something I have contributed nothing to. More people following my example will do a lot to giving us more time on this planet.
You suggest that everyone else on the planet works 11 months a year? Bullshit! Time for you to venture out of your urban shell, and discover the real world out there, with real people, with real minds of their own, not consumer units. Don't be shy. It really does exist.
While they won't ever make up a majority of the population, there will always be enough refugees from "Consumer society" to keep guys like me busy, setting them free.
Many of my clients work only a few months a year, and the more affordable ways of getting a boat together that I offer them, lets them reduce even that, and their personal environmental impact, drastically.
Interesting how the greatest proponents of the "Work Ethic" are those who rarely get of their own asses, or get their own hands dirty, but have others do the work for them.
The "Work ethic " never amounted to anything more than the "Greed Ethic".
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Old 15-03-2010, 06:01   #57
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YOU built your own boat, huh? YOU walked to the forest ( someone else's forest, I guess, unless you own a few hundred acres?) and YOU felled trees with a hand ax ( nobody who works a month a year built that chainsaw) and ripped those trees into planks, and planed them by hand. No power tools, of course. Because lets face it, nobody who worked one month a year in their lives designed and built an electric plant and ran the transmission lines to where you wanted to work. Forget the power tools. Gosh, how many years does it take to cut timber, cure it, and build a boat working one month a year?

Just curious, but do you walk everywhere you go? How does it feel not ever being able to experience riding in an airplane from one continent to another?

No, you are totally full of it. You are the example of someone who lives off the production of other people. The classic fable the Grasshopper and the Ant, except in your case you somehow figure you get to use the results of the ant's efforts while rubbing his face in it.

Hey, just curious, how long does it take you to weave a sail, after you invent the loom, and pick the cotton, and make the thread, ......working one month a year?

You think you are some kind of hero for sponging off the efforts of millions of other people over the years. Well, it's called freeloading. Or some might compare it to the lifestyle of a tick.

You degrinate the "work ethic" that made it possible for you to live like a spoiled brat, calling it the greed ethic. In the meantime, you reap the benefits that result from the productive lives of people like the rest of us. Who finally get to start living the sailing life when we reach our late 50's and early 60's. And you come on here extolling the virtues of your non-productive life. Well, do the math, if everyone was like you,
we would all still be living in caves.

You damned sure wouldn't be polishing the stainless fittings someone else produced and wearing clothing someone else produced, while you typed on the internet someone else produced, and preached in a forum using software someone else produced.

Like it or not, the word for someone who works four weeks out of 52 and bums around the rest of the time is not the new messiah.
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Old 15-03-2010, 06:06   #58
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I am currently completing the sale of my 31'Beneteau. Our plan is to buy a 43'-47' boat for coastal cruising in about 10 years (my retirement). Our budget is 100K - 200K.

My choices are to buy an 80's cruising boat (1983 C&C Landfall cc) and refurbish it or buy a MUCH newer Beneteau (42 cc 2004) that is fully equipped and just finished doing the exact cruising im interested in and keep it maintained for our futuer cruise.

I figure I will spend 200K with either boat.

I was talking to the surveyor at my haul out yesterday and his advise was to buy the newest boat I can afford.

Any opinions?
So after all the debate: what did YOU decide on?
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Old 15-03-2010, 07:14   #59
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OK guys, time to take your medication.
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Old 15-03-2010, 07:16   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canibul View Post
YOU built your own boat, huh? YOU walked to the forest ( someone else's forest, I guess, unless you own a few hundred acres?) and YOU felled trees with a hand ax ( nobody who works a month a year built that chainsaw) and ripped those trees into planks, and planed them by hand. No power tools, of course. Because lets face it, nobody who worked one month a year in their lives designed and built an electric plant and ran the transmission lines to where you wanted to work. Forget the power tools. Gosh, how many years does it take to cut timber, cure it, and build a boat working one month a year?

Just curious, but do you walk everywhere you go? How does it feel not ever being able to experience riding in an airplane from one continent to another?

No, you are totally full of it. You are the example of someone who lives off the production of other people. The classic fable the Grasshopper and the Ant, except in your case you somehow figure you get to use the results of the ant's efforts while rubbing his face in it.

Hey, just curious, how long does it take you to weave a sail, after you invent the loom, and pick the cotton, and make the thread, ......working one month a year?

You think you are some kind of hero for sponging off the efforts of millions of other people over the years. Well, it's called freeloading. Or some might compare it to the lifestyle of a tick.

You degrinate the "work ethic" that made it possible for you to live like a spoiled brat, calling it the greed ethic. In the meantime, you reap the benefits that result from the productive lives of people like the rest of us. Who finally get to start living the sailing life when we reach our late 50's and early 60's. And you come on here extolling the virtues of your non-productive life. Well, do the math, if everyone was like you,
we would all still be living in caves.

You damned sure wouldn't be polishing the stainless fittings someone else produced and wearing clothing someone else produced, while you typed on the internet someone else produced, and preached in a forum using software someone else produced.

Like it or not, the word for someone who works four weeks out of 52 and bums around the rest of the time is not the new messiah.
Maybe the Wall Street Boys only have to work one day.
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