Older vs Newer

[Wainui]

I looked hard at many newer boats around the 50' lengths but could not bring myself to spend the $300 to $500k required. I brought a 1966 Cal 48 that needed much work for $50k and spent 4 years (weekends etc) and $75k restoring it. I now have maybe $50k that will not be recouped if sold. but a newer $500k boat would have dropped by at least $100k (not including the cost of money) over 5 years and I would not have aquired the repair skills that I now have.
I try to compare it to an old classic car that everybody comes over to admire, which makes the effort worthwhile. I do not believe that it is snobbery that motivates the older boat aficionado. I must admit that I like the look and sailing abilities of the newer Jeanneau 49
Each to his own
Mark

[Mule]

I have no preconcieved notions, I am just trying to figger it out. Is 15k lbs considered light for a 38 foot boat? I realize you are not buying a car or a house when you pull the trigger on a boat. In the pleasure boat industry the boats are gussied up like auto interiors to make sales to the unknowing. And Sales they do make to the ignorant. The buyers find impossible to keep interiors w/o lots of time invested and keeping them out of the sun.

It stands to reason that when you are looking at a 100k +- investment a competent survery is in order, if financing, the bank will require it. That being said newer seems like would be better when it comes to maintaince, but I am surprised that the beneteau, catalina, hunter, jenneteau are considered light weight, but perhaps they are. I am not knowledgeable in this area and that is why I am asking.

What boats are being built today that is not one off that are heavy and affordable? What is out there post 1995 in the $80k to $120k advertised price with modern rigging, (read in mast furling)? I am more than a little intimitated by the thought of a 25+ year old boat with all the gremlims from leaky teak decks, blisters and so prevelent on older boats, and I suspect that is just the tip of the iceberg. I know survey, survey, and survey some more.

Steel looks good being an old rust preventive specalist..Boatswaine Mate 3rd Class, USN but I shutter to think of resale. Wood, well we know about that. Alumimum, just aint many out there, and they have problems too. so that leaves glass.

So much time and so many worries, so many directions and choices.

[ctl411]

It depends on the Hunter, my 37 is #18000 plus? she is a older cutter.I have owned 5 25,30,37,30,37 Cherribini Hunters never had a problem.Sailed them hard 12-14 foot seas 35+ knot winds the 30/37 the 25 maybe 4-5 foot,hard to get out of channel outboard motor. If you don't care about impressing people buy what you want-need (how,where you plan to sail) that you want. I like the older classic look but don,t want to pay for it. 82 Hunter 37 cutter,kind of classic lines,heavy built and cheap $25000.I would think most who talk down brand xyz hav'nt sailed on them. Yes before you haters write in I know my portlights are plastic and my rudder is goin to fall off!!!

[s/v Beth]

Mule,
I am going to assume that this is a legit question and not a troll from the bored. I own a 37 year old brick house sailboat. I paid lots for it, and I am paying alot more to get a total renovation done. (BTW- alot of it is being done my me) Why- snobbery has nothing to do with it. I prefer not to go where I am noticed. It has everything to do with quality. This boat has circumnavigated, and sailed at least as much around the sound. It has endured hurricanes. It still has its orginal standing rigging (although not for long) and the teak holly floors look spotless. It was designed right, and built right. And as I wander around the world it will serve me right.
Enough said.

[Cheechako]

"....I brought a 1966 Cal 48 that needed much work for $50k and spent 4 years (weekends etc) and $75k restoring it. I now have maybe $50k that will not be recouped if sold....."
I think that is the real root of the question:
1) Where do you plan to go? If you think you are going to sail the world, have you cruised enough to actually know that?
2) Do you love working on boats? from above: "50K and 4 years..." forget the $50k... do you want to spend 4 years of your life crawling inside spaces that take a well made plan to get in and out of? Some of us (guilty as charged!) spend more time working on the boat than doing the cruising....
3) You need to soul search these questions first. Some would be much better off just buying a production boat and sailing the Carribean for a couple of years then deciding what the long term is. I've seen too many take on too big a project and get disappointed and never go.... what a shame just because we think the vehicle's got to be perfect! I've seen very happy cruisers who are not into boat work much, in everything from a rusting steel sloop to a Westsail 32 (with few upgrades from the "as purchased" condition) having a great time...... You just need to know which is your place, nothing wrong with either....

[SkiprJohn]

Aloha "Boats,"
You have asked a very legit question. In my point of view the older designs sail better in heavy seas and are tougher. Just look in any boat yard and take your hand along the side of a thin skinned newer boat and push in the side with the palm of your hand. Just think what happens in some real weather and waves. Some older (and a few newer) boats were designed and built to sail everywhere and many (not all) newer boats were designed and built to sell.
You mentioned being a 3rd Class Boatswain's Mate. The steel hulled ships we were on were designed to be placed in combat. Steel won't burn as easily. All the motor whaleboats and Captain's gigs were made of fiberglass for a reason (maintenance and ease of repair).
Of course these are all just my opinions and there might be others out there that disagree.
Kind regards,
JohnL

[journey on]

Well, this is a good question which I asked back in 92. Our thought was to retire in a couple of years and go cruising. Looking at all the boats available and our time schedule, proclivities and past experience, we made the "right" decision for us. Mortgaged the damn house and bought a new Catalina 36. I'm not arguing, Hunters are good, Benateaus are great, etc. We bought a Catalina.

Here are the reasons:

1. We wanted to go sailing. Buying an older boat just takes longer, our kids were out of school, I was working my tail off at work, and we're not getting any younger.

2. Catalinas are cheap and sturdy. The 36 isn't built any more but it was a great boat for the price (and as it turned out great boat period.) We'd had a couple of Catalinas before and try as we would, couldn't break them. Don't know what they go for now, but the price of a used one didn't save that much.

3. Instead of working on the boat, we sailed it and found out a lot we didn't know. Installing the necessities (radar, SSB, good anchors, good blocks, etc.) Practiced navigation, which in SoCal isn't a big requirement.

4. My dad loved to build and re-build things. Jacked up one house and slid a new foundation under it. I didn't inherit any of that. I wanted to sail, hated to rebuild anything. Though if you're cruising you're working on the boat, which I can accept.

Finally left and when we got to Tahiti, we found out that our plan worked for us. And we learned that everyone else's plan worked for them. One guy circumnavigated in a steel 25' boat. There were new, old, rebuilt and one I wouldn't have sailed to Catalina, but we all made it. The one I thought wouldn't go to Catalina was stripped and sunk, and the flew back to Canada. But it fulfilled their plan to sail to the South Pacific.

The important thing is the find a plan which works for you, and then do it.

Boris

[nautical62]

Boat I've purchased ranged from a 1969 heavy displacement pocket cruiser for 10K. to a brand new 33 Beneteau, the costs of which are kept down through charter management. Both extremes got me out there cruising.

Personally, when people brag about how much they've spent on things like boats or cars, I just smile, knowing that by keeping the costs of both down, I'm out sailing more on a limited income.

[Brent Swain]

I think it would be naive to think that they could build a modern boat with modern prices for labour and material as well as they could decades ago, for the same price. The older boats are simply better sea boats , period. Ultimate stability was a non issue back then, with narrower , deeper hulls.. Keels didn't fall off and osmosis only became an issue around 1980, 30 years after they started building boats out of fibreglass.
Modern boats are built to sell , the interior being the main priority, over seaworthiness and ultimate stability. Modern boats are also extremely ugly.
Brent

[Curmudgeon]

Well, quality is quality whether it is new or old. Go to any boat show and look closely at the Island Packets. Then look at a Hunter or a Beneteau. You'll know the difference. The prices reflect that difference.

And I'm sure that some of the older Hunters (e.g the cherubinis) were built better than the boats Hunter is selling now. Chevy made some good cars too, but on balance you would be better off with a Mercedes.

[Hiracer]

New boats are sold largely by the pound--that and systems installed.

Which is why many newer boats are light displacement. Light displacement is sold as 'fast' but really it's a less expensive way to build a boat.

Find newer boats with higher displacements and see how the price skyrockets.

So, economics definitely is a major driver for many so-called modern designs. They are not designed to be better boats, mainly just less expensive to produce. Even so, the boats are so expensive that the marketing department definitely doesn't want to market based on price--with a few exceptions not surprisingly. So lightweight is spun as fast. Of course, fully loaded for cruising, they are not fast at all unless you get above,say, the 45 foot range.

And even if you are able to stay light, now you've got a boat that gets tossed around in any kind of a sea state, i.e., is not seakindly. You don't see many sailboat marketing departments talk about seakindliness--for good reason. Seakindliness is horrendously expensive to build, which is why you find it mainly in older boats. Seakindliness has been priced out of the new boat market. The smaller the boat, the more mass you need to be seakindly. Up goes price; down go sales.

Heavier displacement might translate into better build quality, stronger, stiffer boats, more seakindly, and better able to ferry cruising loads, but for the boat maker it's a terrible business plan. The boat won't sell. Most buyers are not bluewater cruisers. They want merely a weekend fun machine. Bluewater cruisers are such a small sliver of the new boat market that it's like they don't exit. Back when the price of oil was lots cheaper (boats are largely an oil derivative product) that wasn't always the case.

OTOH, it can cost a fortune putting new systems into an older boat. The more the systems, the more it's going to hurt.

[Hiracer]

Originally Posted by Mule

Steel looks good being an old rust preventive specalist..Boatswaine Mate 3rd Class, USN but I shutter to think of resale.

The thing about steel is that you need to buy it AFTER resale value has already taken a hit. Then you're covered.


But the other thing about steel is that poor designs are over represented in steel boats. If you don't know sailboat design, don't buy steel.


And the other thing about steel, you gotta know ALL about the quality of the original paint job. That or resign yourself to redoing it.


Even as a happy steel boat owner (and I wouldn't have any other boat material--unless I went wood for a trimaran) I see steel as a series of landmines best avoided by the average sailboat buyer.

[keelbolts]

I've cruised with all the bells and whistles and without. I enjoyed without more as there was less to go wrong. More systems = more things to fix. Get an older, cheaper boat, leave off the jacuzzi and wide screen TV and go. OR... you can buy the new fancy one and plan to go cruising while you work to pay off your boat. I know which one sounds best to me, but each individual has to choose for himself.

Another thing you see too little about is boat size as it relates to safety. A couple who can safely sail as 32' boat can find themselves overwhelmed, when it hits the fan, in their 47' boat.

[s/v Beth]

Good points Keelbolts. I think some older boats can be safely singlehanded- it is just up to the skipper on how much autopilot he wants to use. He/she had better be pretty good at anticipating trouble too.
( I will single hand my V-40, but even with everything set up correctly it isn't easy.)

[Brent Swain]

I built my first steel boat a 29 footer, for around $4500 and sold it for $23,000. The next two owners also chose my designs for their next boat , after selling her. They must have been content with my designing.
The first 31 I built sold for many times what her owners spent on her. Most of my designs sell for many times what their owners spend on them. Locals can tell you how well the inside was painted before foaming. Almost all were heavily epoxied before foaming ,which is definitley not the case with many commercially built boats in BC. Resale value is not what you can get for a boat, that is only resale price. Resale value is the difference between what she cost you and what you can get for her. The more you spend on her, the less the gap and thus the less the resale value of a boat. It is not uncommon for someone to spend an extra 40K to increase the resale price by 20K a net loss of 20K.
The only way to be absolutely sure of how a boat is put together is to put her together yourself
Brent