Older, Higher Quality vs Newer Production Boats

[muskoka]

Originally Posted by bstreep

HOWEVER, a 20 year old, well built boat will suffer very little depreciation, compared to the newer production boat. Depreciation is THE SINGLE LARGEST BOAT EXPENSE.

Look at it this way: A new 40' production cruiser costs $250K. In 10 years, it will be worth $125K. That's $1000 per MONTH of depreciation ALONE.

Really good point regarding depreciation costs. And the trouble is compounded if you've financed the purchase of your new yacht!!

[zeehag]

my ketch was built in 1976. an excellent year. i bought this 41 ft ketcxh fro a total of 10,000 dollars. i have put in an engine, 2500., i am changing the deck backing plate, foredeck-- 800 dollars (wrong repair dude!) and strengthening 2 bulkheads-- anchor locker and next to fridge: rebuilding windlass(lofrans electric), and fixing a couple ofelectrical needs and replacing packing gland and i am out of here. my total into this will be less than 15000 dollars. yes in decent shape.. yes fully re-rigged 5 yrs ago. new electronix 5 yrs ago. simrad auto pilot - hydraulic, on the quadrant; radar, gps--everything....replacement value is, by survey, 168,000, for this particular one..so, tell me, who wins?? i think I do......

[GeoPowers]

Didn't we just do this debate? http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ing-37338.html


For the record, I've never been so happy to be inside a flimsy, shoddy, poorly-built, fragile, unstable, and unseaworthy floating death trap as I am with my crappy Beneteau.

Even (gasp) while sailing! And we all made it back alive!! More than once!

(Honestly, I do feel a little remorse for all those who are stuck on dirt fixing up their "older, stronger" boats in the yard for season after season while we are out playing, but I also hope the mentality of "older is better" remains so I can sell my boat in 20 years when it is a born-again classic. Then I can buy another crappy, newer boat!)

We bought our boat for 135k back in 2008. Take a look at what 2006 393's are going for now....oh wait, weren't they supposed to loose all their value? Maybe in the first 2-3 years, but after that it really levels off. People that buy brand-new boats know this just as well as people who buy new cars.

Also don't forget to take a look a livability and above all what the better half prefers! Nothing of course can take the place of going out and stepping onboard a bunch of different boats.

Good luck in whatever choice you make, whether it is a floating death trap or a money pit firmly attached to dirt!

[zeehag]

who is stuck on the hard?? i am in water..LOL.. 10 k for 41b ft and in the water -- nearly ready to go. presuming that all cheepo boats are on the hard is like saying all beneteaus sukk.
go figger. have to judge by individual specimen. not all are as good as others.
not all folks like the same thing-- wouldnt it be a boring world if that was the case-- that we all had to like same stuff?? lol
i got mine by advantage-- i saw it being abandoned and i picked it up before it took millions of hours to repair and before it took all my time and effort-- and is IN THE WATER and always has been..>LOL. NO depreciation. NO payments.NO waiting forever. NO thin hulled fears. lol
many have found deals like mine and even better ones. is gonna be more coming up in near future also. goood luck. when asking these particular questions, you will hear all kinds of remarks and opinions-- if you cannot do much work yourself and have no options as to having work done for less than 85 dollars per hour, then it will cost many millions of hours and many thousands of dollars.
i am fortunate to know what i am looking for and what needs to be done. i also know the right folks to use for the work, generally. 15000 for a good heavy displacement cruiser in decent shape is awesome. i still win.
--i dont really like performance cruisers for long distance cruising. did that last year--was fun but a lot of work and we were tired when we arrived in most places-- reallly tired. every boat has place and a person to love it--that is the point-- find what YOU like and enjoy it.. smooth sailing!!!

[Tom1340]

Last spring, I had the same question about which type of boat. I went to the Oakland Strictly Sail boatshow and the Mahina offshore cruising seminar looking for expert advice. Most of the advice I rec'd mirrored the reponses above - 'go with a traditional cruising boat'. Then I lucked into a crew position on a 45 ft European sailboat (Italian built) returning from Bermuda to England. The owners and other crew laughed at American preference for traditional yachts over modern production boats. They had little good to say about Hunter or Catalina, but had mostly praise for Beneteau. Our vessel joined a small fleet leaving Bermuda the day after a front passed. When our fin keel/ spade rudder boat arrived in the Azores 13 days later, the only traditional cruiser in the fleet (also, the only American boat) was still at least a week away from landfall. There was some pretty rough weather in the Atlantic, and I was glad to have made a fast passage.
Once in the Azores, there were hundreds of crusing boats there, mostly European, including many production boats with modern (i.e. fast) hull designs. I met some Aussies and some Brits who were on extended voyages on Beneteaus, and they were quite happy with their boats.
I continue to struggle with the question of 'which type of boat'. My heart says 'traditional', but there is another point of view that is hard to discount.

[zeehag]

when did catalina and hunter become "traditional cruising yachts"?????

[SurferShane]

Originally Posted by zeehag

who is stuck on the hard?? i am in water..LOL.. 10 k for 41b ft and in the water -- nearly ready to go. presuming that all cheepo boats are on the hard is like saying all beneteaus sukk.
go figger. have to judge by individual specimen. not all are as good as others.

After looking at the photos of your boat I really can’t believe how cheap you can buy classic cruising boats in America. Yours is a lovely boat and if I had something that big I would have no qualms whatsoever about moving onboard. Noting my H28 is big enough for me it is just where to put all those bloody surfboards and occasionally my daughter. Regardless, she is as solid as a rock and sits well at sea. In a collision with a production boat of any size or value I know exactly who will come off better and keep my insurance current!


I looked for over a year and you just don’t get classic cruising yachts that cheap over here and/or New Zealand. Honestly, I thought this guy in Manly (QLD) was joking when he told me these Americans had bought a boat for sale I was admiring for little more than $20,000 US. It was selling for $70,000 AUS.

[Adelie]

If you are just looking at the hull and deck a thicker section in an older boat is going to be better off than a thinner section in a newer boat.

For the same loads and a 10% increase in the thickness of a plank of material the maximum stress in bending will decrease to 75% of what it was originally since stress in the beam varies to the 3rd power of its depth.

For punching shear I believe it decreases similarly but I couldn't find the correct formula. Let say punching shear decreases linearly with thickness just to be conservative.

For a 10% drop in stress, biaxial glass (unclear if it is E or S) and polyester (unclear what type), fatigue life will increase by about 2/3 of a magnitude, ie. 7x or 8x as many cycles from 0 to max stress and back (sounds like repeated impacts with storm waves) before failure.

Sourced on pg 21 of http://www.coe.montana.edu/composite...ort%207005.pdf

The simple conclusion is that for the same use (magnitude of loading), same materials, the slightly thicker skinned boat will have a lot more life in it (total number of load cycles).

While a new boat may have start with no fatigue history, within 4 or 5yr it will have caught up with the older boat with thicker skin in terms of accumulated microscopic fatigue damage.

The truth is a lot more complex than the simple statement above. Newer boats use different glass and different polyester formulations which affect strength of the layup which in turn affects fatigue strength and fatigue life.

But going back to linked paper, on page 20 there is a fatigue life graph for chopped glass (assume mat) and polyester (assume same formulation as pg 21 graph). Starting at 150MPa stress, assuming there is a linear relationship with dimensional changes, a 20% increase in thickness puts the mat on a par with biaxial cloth for fatigue life. This tells me it takes a LOT of strength improvement in the material to equal thickening the hull a bit.

This is part of why coring, which makes the hull a lot thicker, is so attractive. On the other hand coring is not a foregone conculsion in boat construction because a host of new problems crop up with it.

There are a lot of other problems and issues to deal with in older boats, but being slightly thicker in the hull generally goes a long way towards giving them a much longer life than newer boats with generally thinner skins.

[SurferShane]

Originally Posted by Adelie

There are a lot of other problems and issues to deal with in older boats, but being slightly thicker in the hull generally goes a long way towards giving them a much longer life than newer boats with generally thinner skins.

I suspected similar. It is analogous to why some 1960’s surfboards are still rideable while most modern ones are lucky to last a few years. The old ones although nearly twice as long weight almost ten times as much. Likewise, modern boards where the manufactures use better quality cloth and/or workmanship last a lot longer at the same weight.

Still they all fatigue and die eventually. Good thing is glass is not too hard to repair. Still it almost mystifies me why I bought a steel boat? Maybe living near the ocean I have as much experience cutting rust out of cars as I have fixing surfboard dings?

[daddle]

Originally Posted by zeehag

I dont really like performance cruisers for long distance cruising. did that last year--was fun but a lot of work and we were tired when we arrived in most places-- reallly tired.

Put 2 reefs in the sails of a performance cruiser and...voila ... traditional cruising boat. Motor when the wind isn't perfect.

Sorry, the opposite transformation just is not possible

[zeehag]

one thing is certain- a newer , cored hull cannot sit on a breakwater for a week without major damage-- this boat apparently did just that without sustaining ANY damage. no , i didnt own her then--- i heard about it then looked for signs. there are some. nothing big at all--just lil dinks, not many--just a few..cored hull woulda broken up on the breakwater...
no--i didnt find out about that until after i bought her.LOL....

[goboatingnow]

lt) returning from Bermuda to England. The owners and other crew laughed at American preference for traditional yachts over modern production boats. They had little good to say about Hunter or Catalina, but had mostly praise for Beneteau.

And we still are. It's purely a US argument the rest of the world just goes sailing and head for head Europe does more of it then almost anywhere else ( except NZ) but of course the US is different ...

Anyway at this rate what are you guys going to do when all the 20 - 30 year old stuff gone. Since almost nobodies producing your " blue water boat!!!) where you going to get them in the future.

Dave

[sailorboy1]

I don't think for most of us this discussion really matters. In the end we have to buy the boat we can afford. For me this means a 20+ year boat and from there it just comes down to features and overall general condition. It is hard to call a 20+ year boat in good condition as bad and poor quality. Afterall it now has 20 years of proven life. The build "quality" is an old discussion and most boats are built way beyound our ability to sail it.

In the end older boats are going to need the same maintenance items done to them.

[SurferShane]

Originally Posted by Don Lucas

I don't think for most of us this discussion really matters. In the end we have to buy the boat we can afford.

A very valid point!

An interesting read about imploding boats is Rob Mundle’s “Fatal Storm”, which is a fairly objective account of the 1998 Sydney to Hobart Yacht Race. I have had the book lying around for a while though only read it the other night. Maybe it is just too close to home?

For the boats that got too close, the extreme low pressure that developed spared no yacht. Everything from good quality production boats, traditional design classics and foam sandwiched racers where absolutely obliterated when mountainous seas broke on top of them.

The stories of some of the boats that survived where just as amazing including of one entrant comprising a disabled crew that sailed straight through the storm. Another I thought persuasive was the skipper who decided to head for New Zealand under the rationale that the plane tickets home where a better option than risking their lives. Maybe it shows how determination, seamanship and a bit of luck can be just as important as the boats design?

[captainKJ]

Maybe it shows how determination, seamanship and a bit of luck can be just as important as the boats design?

words of wisdom,,, thanks for posting that,,,