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Old 27-04-2012, 17:40   #31
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Re: Older glass boats

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Blisters just seem to occur on certain boats.... and I dont think anyone has the answer yet. Some boats seem to develop none. Some boats may get an occassional few. No problem.
The boat you want to avoid is the one that gets a lot of them. Some of these boats have been repaired 2-3 times (albeit not properly). Try walking through the boat yard and look at boats that have been completely sanded (not peeled) you often see two colors or more of filler that was used to fill the blisters years apart.
If I had to guess I would say '71-'85-ish were the worst years.... but that would simply be a wild guess. Maybe it's just because there were a lot of boats built in those years and they were getting older! I had a 74 that was terribly infested and an 85 also! I had another 85 that never had one. Both 85's were Taiwan built.
A thick rolled on epoxy resin layer (after months of drying on a bad case) seems to do the job on boats I've had and seen...
Blisters happen to some boats but hydrolysis happens to ALL boats to some degree Basic chemistry from what the industries say)...till you core your hull you never know...
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Old 27-04-2012, 18:47   #32
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Re: Older glass boats

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nope...not an idiot here...been repairing glass boats a long time...last 11 years in the marine industry as a pro.
Hmm, if ya are so experienced and smart, why did you buy this boat?
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Old 27-04-2012, 19:06   #33
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Re: Older glass boats

Ha Ha
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Old 27-04-2012, 19:07   #34
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Re: Older glass boats

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Hmm, if ya are so experienced and smart, why did you buy this boat?
Well smarty pants...if you read my last post you would know that you CAN'T know if you have hydrolysis unless you core the boat...

I wasn't able to be at the survey and the surveyor missed it completely...thus my distaste for the insurance industry thinking surveys ACTUALLY accomplish much.

The good news is I can reapair it for a fraction of what it would cost to be done by a yard...not a lot of folks would tackle the job. Plus I did learn a lot more about hydrolysis AFTER buying the boat and reasearching the subject.

Boating pubs rarely discuss hydrolysis and talk about blisters like they know what they are talking about.
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Old 27-04-2012, 20:05   #35
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Re: Older glass boats

Well, I have a boat built in 1974 that still keeps the water on the outside. I don't have much money in her and she takes me sailing and fishing. Of all the thousands of boats built in that era I have not heard of any that have sunk due to osmosis. There may well be some, but the portion seems so small that its not something I lose sleep over.

IMHO the whole subject is a massive money spinner for the people who fix boats for a living. Not to denigrate your experience, but how many years do you think you still had left before yours would have sunk due to your hull failing?
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Old 28-04-2012, 04:44   #36
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Re: Older glass boats

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Well, I have a boat built in 1974 that still keeps the water on the outside. I don't have much money in her and she takes me sailing and fishing. Of all the thousands of boats built in that era I have not heard of any that have sunk due to osmosis. There may well be some, but the portion seems so small that its not something I lose sleep over.

IMHO the whole subject is a massive money spinner for the people who fix boats for a living. Not to denigrate your experience, but how many years do you think you still had left before yours would have sunk due to your hull failing?
It only take one layer of glass to keep the water out...the reasons there's more layers is to keep logs, boards, rocks...etc..etc on the outside...

And unless you have taken the gel coat off your boat or done a recent core and hait it checked for water...you don't know if the water is still on the outside....

The real problem is initial resin, layup, cure and how long the boat has stayed immersed and in what temp water.

You take all the bad extremes of those variable and you might just end up with a hull like mine....
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Old 28-04-2012, 05:46   #37
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Re: Older glass boats

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The real problem is initial resin, layup, cure and how long the boat has stayed immersed and in what temp water.

You take all the bad extremes of those variable and you might just end up with a hull like mine...
Agreed, thankfully in the majority of cases you couldn't peel sheets of GRP off a hull, so for those who are wondering about osmosis well there has been a lot of paranoia over 3 decades and as Joe says some folk are making a lot of money off the back of it.

I seem to remember the price of oil trebling in the mid 1970s, wonder if some of the problems are down to the resin manufacturers altering the recipe to reduce the cost?

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Old 28-04-2012, 07:06   #38
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Re: Older glass boats

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Agreed, thankfully in the majority of cases you couldn't peel sheets of GRP off a hull, so for those who are wondering about osmosis well there has been a lot of paranoia over 3 decades and as Joe says some folk are making a lot of money off the back of it.

I seem to remember the price of oil trebling in the mid 1970s, wonder if some of the problems are down to the resin manufacturers altering the recipe to reduce the cost?

Pete
Osmosis is the net movement of solvent molecules through a partially permeable membrane into a region of higher solute concentration, in order to equalize the solute concentrations on the two sides.[

Hydrolysis is a chemical process in which a water molecule is added to a substance resulting in the split of that substance into two parts. One fragment of the target molecule (or parent molecule) gains a hydrogen ion (H+) from the split water molecule. The other portion of the target molecule collects the hydroxyl group (OH−) of the split water molecule. In effect an acid and a base are formed.

It's not osmosis that is the problem for all of us ..at least not in the beginning...it's just one reason you start to get blisters...it's Hydrolysis that ALL RESIN made boats will suffer from eventually...the question that every boatowner has to guess at till they have the ba**s to grind their gel coat off or core.

Whether you believe me or not...any glass boat headed for the tropics that's not already barrier coated or vinylester made...and plans on staying in the water all year...it is probably worth the money to dry and barrier coat before you do so.

Even if it doesn't get that serious...if you don't plan on keeping the boat forever...it may be a deal breaker when you go to sell it.
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Old 28-04-2012, 07:50   #39
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Re: Older glass boats

I really think there is alot more talk than problem. And I doubt that it's a huge issue with lots of boats and the owners are just to wimpy to peel it away to find it. I would bet the boat with major peeling had some resin mix issues or the lay up guy just got served divorce papers, whatever. But to say that its coming to all boats without a barrier coat is totally false. Just look at all the good old boats in every yard, everywhere.
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Old 28-04-2012, 10:55   #40
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Re: Older glass boats

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Originally Posted by Pete7 View Post
Agreed, thankfully in the majority of cases you couldn't peel sheets of GRP off a hull, so for those who are wondering about osmosis well there has been a lot of paranoia over 3 decades and as Joe says some folk are making a lot of money off the back of it.

I seem to remember the price of oil trebling in the mid 1970s, wonder if some of the problems are down to the resin manufacturers altering the recipe to reduce the cost?

Pete
Yes, I think you are right. The oil crisis in the US was... '73? I remember in '71 gas was as low as 23 cents a gallon. I had a '74 Rawson 30. Those boats were reputed to be heavily built. Mine had terrible blister problems and the layup was very thin. (like <3/8" a foot from the centerline!) So obviously they were trying to keep their committments of building boats and stay open by using less layup. I think prior to the crisis layups were resin heavy. There's been a lot of discussion over the years how using less resin is better..... but I've often wondered if that is not true. It DOES seem that boats built prior to the early 70's have less blister issues. Lets face it.... cloth, even fiberglass cloth, wicks water very well. (Lay a strip of cottom cloth half in, half out of a glass of water and eventually the whole coth will be saturated).. IMHO it needs to be heavily infused. Sometimes engineers under pressure from accountants just "get it wrong".... and in boatbuilding it's often just an owner doing both jobs!
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Old 28-04-2012, 12:55   #41
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Re: Older glass boats

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I really think there is alot more talk than problem. And I doubt that it's a huge issue with lots of boats and the owners are just to wimpy to peel it away to find it. I would bet the boat with major peeling had some resin mix issues or the lay up guy just got served divorce papers, whatever. But to say that its coming to all boats without a barrier coat is totally false. Just look at all the good old boats in every yard, everywhere.
Nice head in the sand approach. I used to think that way too.

I now know better... and I can scrape away bottom paint with a knife and see where gel is badly hydrolyzed on MANY boats. I had some issues with my previous 6 big boats and wondered what it was...now I know.

I'll bet there are MANY more boats out there like mine...even tapping the hull doesn't reveal the problem.

Maybe I am chicken little...care to roll the dice with your boat????

Anyway...I don't really care if anyone believes me...my boat is getting fixed and fixed right to outlive me and hopefully my kids....good luck with yours...
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Old 28-04-2012, 13:13   #42
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Re: Older glass boats

The "Oil Crisis" and the resulting 500% increase in the cost of fiberglass resins affected the manufacture of boats in very late '73, but mostly '74. I had purchased a 1973 new and the following '74 production had cut the size of hardware and interior teak in order to keep the costs from skyrocketing. I wonder about the effects of winters on the hard with the hydrolysis and resulting freezing damage. Did the vessel pictured with the delamination layers have a history that could have included frost damage?
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Old 28-04-2012, 13:17   #43
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Re: Older glass boats

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The "Oil Crisis" and the resulting 500% increase in the cost of fiberglass resins affected the manufacture of boats in very late '73, but mostly '74. I had purchased a 1973 new and the following '74 production had cut the size of hardware and interior teak in order to keep the costs from skyrocketing. I wonder about the effects of winters on the hard with the hydrolysis and resulting freezing damage. Did the vessel pictured with the delamination layers have a history that could have included frost damage?
Nope...lived it's whole life (1988 hull) in Florida canal waters with very little time out of the water...just enough to paint bottom every couple of years.
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Old 28-04-2012, 13:46   #44
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Re: Older glass boats

Those photos and your story about this boat is absolutely scary. Hope it doesn't happen too often.
kind regards,
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Old 28-04-2012, 16:07   #45
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Re: Older glass boats

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I really think there is alot more talk than problem. And I doubt that it's a huge issue with lots of boats and the owners are just to wimpy to peel it away to find it. I would bet the boat with major peeling had some resin mix issues or the lay up guy just got served divorce papers, whatever. But to say that its coming to all boats without a barrier coat is totally false. Just look at all the good old boats in every yard, everywhere.
a couple of thoughts:
"And I doubt that it's a huge issue with lots of boats .." As others have mentioned this may very well be true....if the hull was layed up thick, in theory you could just buy the boat at a low price due to the blisters, ignore them and when it's time to sell you haven't lost much... if you can sell that is! Trouble is, most boaters are finicky and worry about this crap! Same thing about wet core in decks... so what! unless it has deteriorated the chainplate anchors etc why does it matter?
"I would bet the boat with major peeling had some resin mix issues or the lay up guy just got served divorce papers, whatever. "
A lot of truth to this, the guys working in the mold were often the bottom of the barrel ,newbies paying their dues, or just a sort of "type" that can do that all day.... they didnt stay on the job long breathing the fumes, and were generally "high" from the fumes etc etc. Resin/catalyst mix issues have occurred with some of the best builders. No one knows until cracks start to appear from hot mix/shrinkage.... sometimes after delivery. It's all about how conscientious the employees really are and how well supervised. What supervisor really wants to go out and peer into whats happening out in the messy, stinky layup area....
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