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Old 24-04-2008, 07:09   #46
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I think every older boat is a project boat, it's just a matter of degrees. How many projects and what type of projects are you willing to take on?
I think Drew is right on, for many of us a project or semi-project boat is the only way to gain entrance to the cruising club. If we could all afford new boats we would be buying them. Project boats are also a great way of seperating the 'dreamers' from the 'do-ers'.
And since I'm from the same generation that's struggling under the shadow of the baby boomers, I'll add this. In 1980 my dad made $35K working as a copier repair tech for Xerox. In 2006 I made $35K working as a maintenance mechanic/electrician in a bottling plant for Coca Cola.
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Old 24-04-2008, 07:28   #47
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While I'm pretty much trained the way you are, as a professional researcher - Physics and worked for NASA on FAST, CLUSTER and ACE missions, also studied plasma physics at the grad level... that makes 2 of us.. ha ha...

While I'm trained the way you are, I can't imagine you think someone would be "doing quite well" if they went to school a 2nd time.

Do you know what school costs? I'm assuming you do. Did you pay for it 100%, or did you have it paid for or get money from relatives?

Makes a big difference when you look at your financial picture.

I don't even want to get into the fact that society now "expects" people to change careers several times. Do you know what that costs? That is another thing that will keep the people who weren't born with a silver spoon in their mouths down. Re-training several times is a terrible concept, financially.

I would also disagree sharply with you on the point that "semi-skilled" people are not doing well. If you take the lifetime income of say... an electrician or something who is my age, then take the income of your average college graduate at my age, you will find the electrician more often then than not, has a higher net worth. (excluding stupid purchases they might tend to waste money on) Why?

They worked all those college years and also didn't start life $30K in the hole from going to college in the first place.

I know where your post comes from... I have lived the life you live in the past. But if you really look at the numbers, and not just the feeling you have working at a great research job (which is quite rewarding), you can't argue the data. Going to school several times is a killer on the net worth side of things.
Moderator's gonna kill this discussion for sure.

You are correct that some tradesmen (electricians, plumbers, etc) do quite well financially. Most working class or pink collar people are struggling with flat wages and inflation, wouldn't you agree?

Personally, I took out loans for undergrad, and found an employer to pay for grad school (doc in applied physics). No help from parents here, except maybe for the genes and the culture.

The world is a dynamic globalized entity now. We have to expect to be dynamic and flexible as well. It's a sharp cultural break from our parents who worked for a company for 30 years and retired. We'll find that much harder to do, and our working careers will be significantly longer (don't expect to retire at 65). You have a very valid point that re-training is expensive in both time and treasure, and should be carefully considered. I would put to you though, that there is a big difference between, say the twelve years of school that it generally takes to be a licenced MD, and taking three years to pick up an executive MBA or a JD in night school. Masters' degrees are great 'foot-in-the-door' tools for career change, and they're not really that expensive, especially if you do it at a State U.

And don't go back to school and study medeval literature. Do that with a library card.

We can argue about whether this new culture of ours is a good or bad thing (I'd argue good, in the long run), and whether business' who benefit handsomly from it ought to pay for the retraining either directly or through taxes to government programs (both). Regardless, it's what we have. So, um... learn how to fix boats. Sorry for the off-topic pull, but it's an interesting subject. I'll gladly contrubute to a new thread if someone starts it.
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Old 24-04-2008, 07:33   #48
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The world is a dynamic globalized entity now. We have to expect to be dynamic and flexible as well. It's a sharp cultural break from our parents who worked for a company for 30 years and retired.
In todays world.

If you don't like change, you'll like irrelevancy even less.

Joli
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Old 24-04-2008, 07:51   #49
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I don’t remember who said it, but I recall something from one of the older boating tomes that there is “nothing quite so much fun as messing around with boats…”
It comes from Wind in the Willows, Kenneth Grahame. It is ratty talking to his new friend Mole, who is obviously not a yachty. "Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing-abolute(ly) nothing-half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats."

Just thought you might like to know.
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Old 24-04-2008, 07:56   #50
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It comes from Wind in the Willows, Kenneth Grahame... Just thought you might like to know.
Thanks – looks like I mushed through the words a tad, and totally screwed up the syntax… oh well, geriatric memory ain’t what it’s cracked up to be…
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Old 24-04-2008, 08:04   #51
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Obviously I am not in America, and do get kinda confused as to whether I am in Generation X, Y or Zzzzzzzzz But I started work in the mid 80's, so not too ancient

IMO their seems to have been a generational shift in attitude (including my own also), involving a feeling of entitlement not only to "stuff", but "good stuff"......without an appreciation of the sacrificies (and self restraint) that accumulating a shed load of toys, a nice house, frequent holidays, nice cars, nice boat, wife & kids and a large pension pot (etc etc) involves......or that all of this not being possible for many / most is "Normal".

It ain't possible to have it "all now" .......and then "all again" later.
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Old 24-04-2008, 08:15   #52
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I think we've largely replaced 'deferred gratitude' with 'debt burden' and as DOJ points out, this isn't without cultural consequences.

Personally, I consider debt burden to be the premium paid to have something right now. I spend much of my time not saving up for things, but figuring out how I can (increase earnings to) carry a larger debt. :lol:
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Old 24-04-2008, 08:24   #53
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There is certainly a false sens e of entitlement perhaps. But then again, at least here in the states there is a rightful sense of irritation at those who set up this current system. Our parents' generation was the first to benefit from the great strides in rights, and working conditions and such that made the boom following world war II possible.

It became the norm to be able to afford a house, 2 cars, a boat, and family vacations on a high school-diploma job. The only thing though is that once this generation got all their wealth (not saying everyone is uber wealthy), they went through great pains to make sure they kept and no one else had those same opportunities.

Laws were changed to make businesses more profitable at the expense of workers. Work weeks longer, wages lower, benefits fewer, retirements and pensions a memory of the past.

I think my generation is a very hard-working generation. Unfortunately many of us have never had the opportunity to save money because even with professional training and college degrees we're often making less than it costs just to live off the basics.

This is a situation that is likely to continue to get out of hand. And, it wont take long before we haev multiple generations of people who start life out with 100k in debt and a masters degree who are just a little pissed that they're working for $7 an hour, have no healthcare, can't pay their bills, and have no future in the traditional economy.

Maybe they'll rebel, maybe they'll find a boat, fix it up, and sail into the sunset.
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Old 24-04-2008, 08:28   #54
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I’ve read, and contributed to this very interesting string. I must say, I can't help thinking some of the, ‘aren’t we hard done to’ posters should perhaps sit back and consider they actually own a boat—some of them very nice by the looks of them, or are planning to buy one. Even considering doing it on the cheap, it still puts them in a league well above the average jack, something the vast majority of the population could not even dream about. I wonder what the average value of boats on this forum is? It might put things in perspective.
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Old 24-04-2008, 09:23   #55
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....perhaps sit back and consider they actually own a boat—some of them very nice by the looks of them, or are planning to buy one. Even considering doing it on the cheap, it still puts them in a league well above the average jack, something the vast majority of the population could not even dream about. I wonder what the average value of boats on this forum is? It might put things in perspective.
Yeah, you're right... but things are beginning to change for the worse. Hopefully this recession will be a short one. One thing is inescapable, that is the price of any boat made in Europe is heading for the stratosphere. Project catamarans might actually make financial sense.
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Old 24-04-2008, 09:40   #56
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Drew,

That's really the wrong attitude. In 98 I started with $2k, and 5 years later walked away with a cat paid for, a sweet pool home paid for, and four seasons in the Bahamas cruising. During the summers I worked on the boat nearly every single day.

I did this with my back, experience, and shrewd business while still offering the cheapest work in town with the best warranty, and the most excellent work available. I only have a high school education, and was a vagabond most of my life. Pull up your boots young fella, and put that education to work by using your noodle. At 47 I decided I needed to accomplish something! I just turned 57 last week. In about 3 more years I will be gone for good.....SAILING AGAIN!
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Old 24-04-2008, 09:45   #57
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Congrats Imagine to Frolic! That is exactly the right attitude.

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Drew,

That's really the wrong attitude. In 98 I started with $2k, and 5 years later walked away with a cat paid for, a sweet pool home paid for, and four seasons in the Bahamas cruising. During the summers I worked on the boat nearly every single day.

I did this with my back, experience, and shrewd business while still offering the cheapest work in town with the best warranty, and the most excellent work available. I only have a high school education, and was a vagabond most of my life. Pull up your boots young fella, and put that education to work by using your noodle. At 47 I decided I needed to accomplish something! I just turned 57 last week. In about 3 more years I will be gone for good.....SAILING AGAIN!
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Old 24-04-2008, 10:07   #58
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OMG!!!!!!!!!!

I could never do that and make it out alive.

Congrats!!!!!!!
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Old 24-04-2008, 10:28   #59
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I'm not saying that it's bad that these guys have gotten that big hand out early in life. Good for them. But for the rest of us expected to do all of this on our own, the numbers just aren't working.
I am 50 something and got little from my parents and still don't have s*it that I want because I have two kids. I am paying for thier college, cars, insurance, food, etc and I don't have what I want.

I could do one of two things.

I bitch all the time too but still work may ass off and remain on call 320+ days a year. Don't have time to work on a boat, much less sail one.....

Love the derail cause I'm a bitchin' too....................
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Old 24-04-2008, 10:35   #60
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I spend much of my time not saving up for things, but figuring out how I can (increase earnings to) carry a larger debt. :lol:
That makes you part of the problem instead of the solution.
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