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Old 08-10-2019, 04:10   #76
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Re: Old vs. NEW Sailboats for Cruising

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Originally Posted by Ibetitsthisway View Post
I would explain it the same way like I explain people not fasten seatbelts and driving their whole lifes without injury or people smoking 40 cigs a day and not getting cancer


Relying on luck is not a good strategy on oceans ... in my humble opinion.
That's my point, it's not luck, the sheer numbers prove this, people are dying from cigarette smoking and from not wearing seatbelts, yet people are not dieing because Beneteaus and Lagoons are falling apart, because they aren't

Your view is very flawed and not backed by facts, show me the evidence, you cant because it dosent exist. This is not my humble opinion, I can point you to two families that I know that finished circumnavigations last year on Lagoons, I can show you three couples that finished circumnavigations this year ,two on beneteaus and one on a jeanneau, these are average people that sailed the world on boats you say aren't upto it, they made it due to luck? you are just wrong.

It's time to question stereotypical opinions that aren't based on facts, I'm happy to be wrong, prove me wrong!.....you cant.
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Old 08-10-2019, 04:55   #77
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Re: Old vs. NEW Sailboats for Cruising









fortgeblasen.at (i am sorry - its all in german) tell how they hit a log with their steel boat near canada. all good. sometime weeks later a gfk boat hit a log an sank.


enough or shall I look for more incidents?


crossing the ocean in a boat that does not heel??
why would anyone?
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Old 08-10-2019, 05:17   #78
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Re: Old vs. NEW Sailboats for Cruising

Flash forward to 2040 and the newest best selling go cruising now book:

"You could get an old boat from say the 2010s, but they are so heavy with over thick hulls in them. You would feel that these would better provide extra strength, but it was just fiberglass with the old school resins. Now days modern construction with klevar and carbon fiber using 5M super resin and applied under controlled conditions by robotics the strength has been doubled at only half the weight."
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Old 08-10-2019, 08:03   #79
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Re: Old vs. NEW Sailboats for Cruising

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fortgeblasen.at (i am sorry - its all in german) tell how they hit a log with their steel boat near canada. all good. sometime weeks later a gfk boat hit a log an sank.


enough or shall I look for more incidents?


crossing the ocean in a boat that does not heel??
why would anyone?
You keep failing to recognize the sheer numbers of modern boats cruising the world trouble free. You find a couple of tragedies which are statistically completely irrelevant compared to how many boats are out there.

I know a guy that lost his Malo 46 off the Seychelles, the rudder came away from the skeg, the water ingress was to great they sunk, my conclusion is all boats with skeg rudders are unseaworthy!!

Another guy lost his steel boat of Mayotte, started taking on water and sank, the conclusion I come to is all steel boats are to fragile to be at sea.....based on your logic via the links above my lodgic must be correct....I can go on if you like?

Anyone can find a couple of one offs but let's look at the whole picture not just cherry pick.

How many leapord catamarans crossed the Atlantic from capetown this year? Often with inexperienced crew? how many sank? Zero!!.....just lucky again I guess.
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Old 08-10-2019, 08:24   #80
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Re: Old vs. NEW Sailboats for Cruising

Not boats With skeg Are unseaworthy or steel boats... But boats Without water proof bulkheads in bow and aft Are. Better 4 sections than 3 And bilgepumps for each those sections.



But.. What Are water proof bulkheads??

They Are heavy and costly and Millions of boats cruise Without them.


Well.. You know thats the cool Part of cruising:
Everbody can Do what He likes.
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Old 08-10-2019, 23:11   #81
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Re: Old vs. NEW Sailboats for Cruising

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You might not like it but it is true imo. At least for 'normal' standard production boats.

And it is the right thing to do also. If consumers do mostly coastal sailing and sit in the marina (when there is strong wind) then a boat optimized for this scenario is much better than an old dark seagoing one.
2010-2105 I raced PHRF as a sail trimmer & attended many after parties. The conversation was always competitive, mostly positive. Always entertaining, yet educational. There was one sore loser in our class, but we didn't care since his wife was a sweetheart. The sore loser was the best sailor too, and would share why he lost [rarely]...which was useful, informative, and often quite animated. Our boat was faster, but he was a better sailor than our skipper...we only beat him one time out of countless races.

My 1st [and last] ""yacht club party" gave a different vibe in conversation; especially in deference to vessel evaluation. Three separate groups & 3 separate conversations: (1)size boasting, (2)build boasting, (3)design boasting, blah, blah, blah., Et Al, etc.
Essentially, s#!+ talking.

To state that all new boats are solely designed to sit in a marina isn't simply erroneous, it's also s#!+ talking.

Maybe it's time to leave keyboards & s#!+ talking in the yacht club and go sailing.

Any boat will do.
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Old 09-10-2019, 00:03   #82
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Re: Old vs. NEW Sailboats for Cruising

Gentlemen, all each of us is doing is justifying our joices of boats for ourselves, our (I include myself!) arguments showing “affirmative bias“...
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Old 09-10-2019, 01:03   #83
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Re: Old vs. NEW Sailboats for Cruising

I dont agree with that.
It is not emational. It is mathemathics for risk averse sailors...



I DO agree that for coastal cruising every boat will do.


But IF cruising the world is your dream, and IF cruising the world means cruising all the world and not bathing in the bahamas - THEN there are in my eyes 2 priorities. And these two priorities have ZERO tolenrance for failure:


- dont loose your life
- dont loose your boat


And as nature is still unpredictable to a certain extent and as humans do make mistakes, there is only one way to achieve anything closer to zero failure:


- buy the outmost seaworthy boat you can afford - with no compromise in seaworthyness!

- prepare every manuever as good as you can

- always have a back up for this manuever
- have a back up for the back up


There are fantastic new boats for the lucky ones with very deep pockets.
All else migth be better of with a seaworthy old boat.
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Old 09-10-2019, 01:25   #84
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Re: Old vs. NEW Sailboats for Cruising

by the way...


I have been in dingis which lost their prop after hitting the ground hard and been blown out to sea


I have been in storm on boats with all crew but me dead seasick


I have been on boats with all crew getting drunk in calm med weather ... missing the point for a reef and praying the rigg will hold bf9 under full sails before reaching the next bay. (a big swan - did work out)


I have been on motorboats, with engine and prop (logs) failures on leeshore.


I have been on motorboats in heavy seas with all china destroyed and the bikes lost to the sea...


I have rescued others from leeshore and alike.

I ve had so many people crash into my boat in harbors and at anchor, because they simply have no clue how to handle a boat.



I have seen quite a lot of failures and human mistakes and I was lucky as close to shore there was always someone to help.


Beeing in nowhereland in bad weather I simply dont want to find myself in these situations.
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Old 09-10-2019, 04:21   #85
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Re: Old vs. NEW Sailboats for Cruising

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Originally Posted by Ibetitsthisway View Post
by the way...


I have been in dingis which lost their prop after hitting the ground hard and been blown out to sea


I have been in storm on boats with all crew but me dead seasick


I have been on boats with all crew getting drunk in calm med weather ... missing the point for a reef and praying the rigg will hold bf9 under full sails before reaching the next bay. (a big swan - did work out)


I have been on motorboats, with engine and prop (logs) failures on leeshore.


I have been on motorboats in heavy seas with all china destroyed and the bikes lost to the sea...


I have rescued others from leeshore and alike.

I ve had so many people crash into my boat in harbors and at anchor, because they simply have no clue how to handle a boat.



I have seen quite a lot of failures and human mistakes and I was lucky as close to shore there was always someone to help.


Beeing in nowhereland in bad weather I simply dont want to find myself in these situations.
It is interesting that all of your points are human errors. Not errors due to a boat being seaworthy or not.

These points tell me that working on the human side is more important than the boat side. Because everything you listed could have been prevented through better seamanship. Not better seaworthiness.
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Old 09-10-2019, 04:46   #86
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Re: Old vs. NEW Sailboats for Cruising

???


Well... if you are the perfect captain, with unlimited knowledge, focus and feeling, than you might ALWAYS see all logs and rocks and shallow passages, you will be able to judge all anchor grounds perfectly, will avoid or outrun every storm, you will do all maintanence perfectly and will replace parts before they break, you will allways know when wind and wave will be too hard for your boat and if you are physically a super hero, who will never converns about boats movements in heavy weather, than you will never make a mistake in any way.


very cool for you!



I am not. I am 100% sure that I will become tired, hungry, sick and cold and make mistakes and I want a boat that can take the beating if I do!




Can you drive on a gravelroad with a Ferrari Enzo? sure you can.
if all works well and you have a perfect throttle feeling, see all pottholes etc, it will work out fine.
or you do it with an old jeep or F150.

you can go faster, with more ease and higher error tolerance... and on average with less damage.
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Old 09-10-2019, 04:52   #87
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Re: Old vs. NEW Sailboats for Cruising

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???


Well... if you are the perfect captain, with unlimited knowledge, focus and feeling, than you might ALWAYS see all logs and rocks and shallow passages, you will be able to judge all anchor grounds perfectly, will avoid or outrun every storm, you will do all maintanence perfectly and will replace parts before they break, you will allways know when wind and wave will be too hard for your boat and if you are physically a super hero, who will never converns about boats movements in heavy weather, than you will never make a mistake in any way.


very cool for you!



I am not. I am 100% sure that I will become tired, hungry, sick and cold and make mistakes and I want a boat that can take the beating if I do!
I think something is lost between the translation from English to German. My post is not a criticism of your history on the water. My post is to point out the human factor is more important than the boat factor. With better seamanship, just about any boat will work. It is proven from your post.
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Old 09-10-2019, 06:04   #88
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Re: Old vs. NEW Sailboats for Cruising

The thread has definitely reached the "Lick me and that will prove how much saltier I am that you!" stage.

The most "interesting" thing about these threads is how when the owners of these "new" boats post how the boats are just fine their actural direct experience is just considered wrong.
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Old 09-10-2019, 07:17   #89
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Re: Old vs. NEW Sailboats for Cruising

no translation error. i did not hear any personal criticism. and i did not reply to YOU personal as a captain, but to all captains out there.

people make mistakes. and it is good, if the boat can forgive them. thats all I am saying.

see the vid with the broken mast on the cat. maybe a heavier and more stable rigg what not have collapsed. thats all I am up to.
think about it - or dont - completely to your liking.

Here in cologne we have a famous "local wisdom" ... which everybody knows is stupid to act after - but it is meant to underline our easy way of life.

it means: "dont worry - so far this s..hit has always worked out well"

... there are more cologne cruisers than I though would be .. lol
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Old 09-10-2019, 11:39   #90
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Re: Old vs. NEW Sailboats for Cruising

Here my observation. I'm a cruiser but still like to race dinghies and own two 17' daysailers. My old one was built in the late 50's and my new one is only a few years old. They are both the same boat, equally as fast but the look and feel are completely different. The old boat mimics a wood boat with wooden seats, thwarts and the rest. The new one is sleek with a self bailing cockpit and buoyancy tanks. The old one is crafted and has thick rugged hand laid fiberglass while the new one is smooth with great ergonomics. I believed the new one would be delicate as the fiberglass feels thinner but both can take a beating. I get complements all the time on the new one, but I still like the old one. It is a dependable old war horse.

I think this is an analogy to the old vs new cruiser. You have to love the ergonomics of the new boats, sleek and beautiful. The fiberglass seems thinner but the technology is better so probably stronger and certainly better engineered. The esthetics may not be there. Personally, I love a gaff rig so right there I disqualify myself from this discussion.
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