Old vs. NEW Sailboats for Cruising

[tarian]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

The Myth that boats were built better back in the day is driven by the old boats that have survived were the well built ones, there were many poorly built ones too, most of them went to the junk yard long ago, so we only see the good old boats, not the junky old boats.

Similar to houses, often the old poorly built houses have fallen down, but the very well built ones haven’t, but there have always been “shotgun” houses, always will be.
However the modern trend is to cut quality of manufacturing in order to increase the size for the same price, same with boats I believe, except for a few manufacturers that won’t do that, but they are few and only manufacture a fraction of new boats manufactured.
Maybe it’s always been that way?

Now newer boats the junkers haven’t been junked yet, so you do see poorly built ones.

There are many well built strong new boats, just those aren’t seen every where and they often cost an arm and a leg, making the good old boats the only “good” boats that many can afford.

Ah sense at last, these threads always turn into a rabble of nonsense and my boat is better than your boat , and someone mention saillife , now there is someone needing some help
40 year old boat , with the same masts and engine(Perkins 4236) and rudder
and shaft no blisters wooden interior same glass windows , now is it better or worse that a 42ft french boat, no idea I dont want one but I have to say that the amount of saildrives that get replaced by these so called modern boats seems strange and blistering that occurs , and rigg changes , maybe I was lucky or I got a bargin , it was a do ere uper which took me a year , new electrics , stripped back bottom. hull poished, new running rigging, cosmetic work inside, know she is a lovley family sailboat, like a turd sailing to windward , but I am in no hurry I am in it for the sailing and the journey, if I wanted to go fast I would by a motorcruiser
You buy what you want and you live with it , as A64 Says all the old boats that were rubbish are gone now they that remain are pretty solid well built and well cared for . I would not expect to see a 40 year old bavaria , with all the masts and engine and non treated hull around

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by tarian

. I would not expect to see a 40 year old bavaria , with all the masts and engine and non treated hull around

I would. Like most 40 year old boats it has little to do with the build quality, it has to do with the owners.

[JBsurfin]

Originally Posted by DSIMMIE

Hey, long time reader here......... not many posts..
Love reading almost everyday.

On many posts I have read, there's a general agreement on that older boats are better built, and newer production boats are not safe.....

I understand the argument of older boats were just built heavier...etc. But, I never see, or have heard of major problems with the newer boats.

Also heard many times that the Newer production boats have crossed more oceans then the older.

I guess my question would be, what are some problems or failures from the new production boats that you have seen/heard of. (other then they are not built like they used to).

Hi: I cruise a 1983, cut away full keel, 37' Dickerson Ketch. Well built, heavy displacement and gets me home in some snarly seas and weather. All depends on what you seek and what your budget is.

[tarian]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

I would. Like most 40 year old boats it has little to do with the build quality, it has to do with the owners.

Not true my good friend, osomsis and engine seal failure in saildrives are very common on 1990,s boats and 80s boats from certain marquess, but in others they are not, chainplate failures using poor steel or cheap steel , and using mass production lines were a bored employee does not stick it down, all make for a company to be at fault rather than the owners, my boat was a charter boat and took some abuse but it as I said has been lovingly brought back to life with minimal fuss, this is due the the designer and the boat builder in the 70,s certain yards prided themself on quality and craftmanship over plywood and balsa cores and cheap products, they production line seen only a handfull of boats , to the hundreds a french or german factory can produce, one only needs ot compare the Hallberg Rassey factory to that of the Beneteau , hence the price difference.
I once went to college many years ago to learn how to fix dents in cars using just a hammer and a a dolly and file , we use filler now, the person teaching us was retired , but what skill he had , and was in demand to fix all the high end cars that took a crash, as he was the only one with the skill level to weld and distort metal and hammer it back to shape so the car never had filler, this is the diffrence between a good boat and a production boat.
do you want a handcrafted Rolls Royce or a ford , each do the same job drive you down a road but the expectation is that the rolls is better made and will outlast your ford as many do .
How many new boatts leave the factory from these large production lines that still have snagging to do and owners getting warrenty work done, I would never buy a new boat from a high warrenty return Marquee , this shows poor quality control and poor practice.
I wonder how many Hallbergs go back or Island Packets

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

I would. Like most 40 year old boats it has little to do with the build quality, it has to do with the owners.

I agree 100%, it's about maintenance. A boat is in a continuous deterioration cycle, new or old is irrelevant, you spend the money and maintain it and it lasts ,you dont and it doesn't, it's really that simple.

In regards to old hills being better, that's joke that constantly gets repeated, I've witnessed first hand very poorly laided up old hulls that now have problems.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by tarian

Not true my good friend, osomsis and engine seal failure in saildrives are very common on 1990,s boats and 80s boats from certain marquess, but in others they are not, chainplate failures using poor steel or cheap steel , and using mass production lines were a bored employee does not stick it down, all make for a company to be at fault rather than the owners, my boat was a charter boat and took some abuse but it as I said has been lovingly brought back to life with minimal fuss, this is due the the designer and the boat builder in the 70,s certain yards prided themself on quality and craftmanship over plywood and balsa cores and cheap products, they production line seen only a handfull of boats , to the hundreds a french or german factory can produce, one only needs ot compare the Hallberg Rassey factory to that of the Beneteau , hence the price difference.
I once went to college many years ago to learn how to fix dents in cars using just a hammer and a a dolly and file , we use filler now, the person teaching us was retired , but what skill he had , and was in demand to fix all the high end cars that took a crash, as he was the only one with the skill level to weld and distort metal and hammer it back to shape so the car never had filler, this is the diffrence between a good boat and a production boat.
do you want a handcrafted Rolls Royce or a ford , each do the same job drive you down a road but the expectation is that the rolls is better made and will outlast your ford as many do .
How many new boatts leave the factory from these large production lines that still have snagging to do and owners getting warrenty work done, I would never buy a new boat from a high warrenty return Marquee , this shows poor quality control and poor practice.
I wonder how many Hallbergs go back or Island Packets

Are we talking old vs new or quality vs no quality? Are you saying no new boats are produced to a good or high quality? I would say modern techniques and technology can produce higher quality if chosen to do so.

To say all old boats are high quality is just not true.

Something I find amusing is in most cases (things that aren't boats) we assume made in Asia is cheap but made in USA or Germany is quality BUT apparently boats that were made in Tawain are better quality than if they were made in the USA or Germany? how does that work?

I was with a old boat owner the other day that knows his old tawanese boat is better than my not as old USA built boat, he also in a separate conversation told me how his deck hull join leaked like a sive until he removed the toe rail cap and filled it full of goo. He also told me that Catalina uses crap stainless steel but forgot to mention in a previous conversation that hed just replaced a heap of stainless steel on his boat.....btw , my hull deck join dosent leak and I've only had one stainless steel issue to date, I'm must of got lucky,only explanation for it.

[tarian]

Originally Posted by daletournier

I agree 100%, it's about maintenance. A boat is in a continuous deterioration cycle, new or old is irrelevant, you spend the money and maintain it and it lasts ,you dont and it doesn't, it's really that simple.

In regards to old hills being better, that's joke that constantly gets repeated, I've witnessed first hand very poorly laided up old hulls that now have problems.

Oh nonsense as one who has an old boat battered and brueised throught years of charter she has stood the test of time. Why because she was better built, but it has nothing to do with maintenace no maintenance will stop osomsis or chainplates failing or rubber seals going on a engine , some people let their bellies rumble without any real knowledge of anything,

Oh what knowledge do you have Tarian , mmmmm

Not much just 3 generations of working in the marine industry(Granfather, Father 2 brothers) , including shipbuilding on the Clyde atlantic trawler men to Royal Navy to Marine archetect and CEO of a marine company and Marine Egineer working on 24 v 48 volt systems on ROVS around the world . and and and doing up my old tub which has no osmosis , no chain plate failure , same engine, same mast , rudder, propellor etc, there is the same old saying they do not make then like they used to do, this is true as I said I was trained to fix cars for a while in my youth and we were in the mind set of repair and fix, as the metals were thicker and the products more valuable we are now in the world of throwaway and replace as the metal is thinner and the products used cheaper therefore more affordable to throw away less able to handle stresses
A little like electronics why throw away if it works for a shiny new one. consumererism and a non commitment to the enviroment.bit like some production boats , not all but some so be careful who you choose,
Money does buy you quality in this case

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by tarian

Oh nonsense as one who has an old boat battered and brueised throught years of charter she has stood the test of time. Why because she was better built, but it has nothing to do with maintenace no maintenance will stop osomsis or chainplates failing or rubber seals going on a engine , some people let their bellies rumble without any real knowledge of anything,

Oh what knowledge do you have Tarian , mmmmm

Not much just 3 generations of working in the marine industry(Granfather, Father 2 brothers) , including shipbuilding on the Clyde atlantic trawler men to Royal Navy to Marine archetect and CEO of a marine company and Marine Egineer working on 24 v 48 volt systems on ROVS around the world . and and and doing up my old tub which has no osmosis , no chain plate failure , same engine, same mast , rudder, propellor etc, there is the same old saying they do not make then like they used to do, this is true as I said I was trained to fix cars for a while in my youth and we were in the mind set of repair and fix, as the metals were thicker and the products more valuable we are now in the world of throwaway and replace as the metal is thinner and the products used cheaper therefore more affordable to throw away less able to handle stresses
A little like electronics why throw away if it works for a shiny new one. consumererism and a non commitment to the enviroment.bit like some production boats , not all but some so be careful who you choose,
Money does buy you quality in this case

So how do you explain my mates 1984 boat that has currently been planed back to the foam core due to terrible osmosis, how do you explain the diesel that has got into the core and was dripping out once core was exposed? Btw my 18 year old Catalina is back in the water, no blisters no planing etc.
I didnt have any blisters built in like many of the old boats have, thus I call nonsense to your nonsense.

Your biases have had a long time to fester

[tarian]

Originally Posted by daletournier

Are we talking old vs new or quality vs no quality? Are you saying no new boats are produced to a good or high quality? I would say modern techniques and technology can produce higher quality if chosen to do so.

To say all old boats are high quality is just not true.

Something I find amusing is in most cases (things that aren't boats) we assume made in Asia is cheap but made in USA or Germany is quality BUT apparently boats that were made in Tawain are better quality than if they were made in the USA or Germany? how does that work?

I was with a old boat owner the other day that knows his old tawanese boat is better than my not as old USA built boat, he also in a separate conversation told me how his deck hull join leaked like a sive until he removed the toe rail cap and filled it full of goo. He also told me that Catalina uses crap stainless steel but forgot to mention in a previous conversation that hed just replaced a heap of stainless steel on his boat.....btw , my hull deck join dosent leak and I've only had one stainless steel issue to date, I'm must of got lucky,only explanation for it.

I think it was pretty clear , when discussing a hallberg for example , they are modern boats so is a benateau , who do you think has more recalls and warrenty work
Moody in the 70 and 80s build great boats hence why dso many are around today, old boats.
would I buy a new mass produced boat, no chance, would I buy a brand new Hallberg yes please.
makes sense to me.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by tarian

I think it was pretty clear , when discussing a hallberg for example , they are modern boats so is a benateau , who do you think has more recalls and warrenty work
Moody in the 70 and 80s build great boats hence why dso many are around today, old boats.
would I buy a new mass produced boat, no chance, would I buy a brand new Hallberg yes please.
makes sense to me.

Makes sense to you, it may, but that's just your view of the world.

How many boats do Benteau make per year? how many over the last decade? two decades? I think their record is pretty bloody good despite the naysayers.

My mate just finished a 10 year circumnavigation on his Beneteau 473, hes now off again, no osmosis ,no broken chain plates etc., how do you explain this? once again is he just lucky?

I'm not saying a Beneteau is a better boat than a Halberg rassy I'm saying your reasoning is horribly flawed, the numbers support me. Real world experience has me me seeing many types of boats in anchorages all over the world, they all get there under their own sails.

You wouldnt own a new production boat, I wouldnt own an old boat, why because they're old and stuff wears out, theres no magic that stops this, repair and replace if you want any boat last the years, your old boats dont have super powers.

Btw, old boats own the word osmosis.

[tarian]

Originally Posted by daletournier

Makes sense to you, it may, but that's just your view of the world.

How many boats do Benteau make per year? how many over the last decade? two decades? I think their record is pretty bloody good despite the naysayers.

My mate just finished a 10 year circumnavigation on his Beneteau 473, hes now off again, no osmosis ,no broken chain plates etc., how do you explain this? once again is he just lucky?

I'm not saying a Beneteau is a better boat than a Halberg rassy I'm saying your reasoning is horribly flawed, the numbers support me. Real world experience has me me seeing many types of boats in anchorages all over the world, they all get there under their own sails.

You wouldnt own a new production boat, I wouldnt own an old boat, why because they're old and stuff wears out, theres no magic that stops this, repair and replace if you want any boat last the years, your old boats dont have super powers.

Btw, old boats own the word osmosis.

still missing the point a 10 year boat is not old a 40 year boat is I bet your friends 10year old boat is scrap before it gets to 25 years

[tarian]

Originally Posted by daletournier

So how do you explain my mates 1984 boat that has currently been planed back to the foam core due to terrible osmosis, how do you explain the diesel that has got into the core and was dripping out once core was exposed? Btw my 18 year old Catalina is back in the water, no blisters no planing etc.
I didnt have any blisters built in like many of the old boats have, thus I call nonsense to your nonsense.

Your biases have had a long time to fester

Go on be brave and mention the boats make then we can discuss

[nofacey]

There are some great older boats, and even some great new built cruising boats.
- both pay attention to strong layup, chainplate, deck joint and all penetration details, as well as using well placed sturdy hardware.

Unfortunately I can’t afford the great new ones.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by tarian

Go on be brave and mention the boats make then we can discuss

I wont mention the boat out of respect to the owner who is a friend, many people read this forum. Nothing to do with bravery ,just respect.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by tarian

still missing the point a 10 year boat is not old a 40 year boat is I bet your friends 10year old boat is scrap before it gets to 25 years

Ok, so my boat is 18 years old ,what your telling me is it won't be around in another 20 years is this correct?

The first picture with ruler is my solid fiberglass hull, please explain why this wont be here in another 20 years, does it just disappear?

The second picture is of a hull that has thousands of voids built in from new, very reputable brand mid 80's boat, explain to me how that old hull is better than my not as old hull or better than modern boats that use modern techniques to build?

I can post pictures of my chain plates as well if you like.

So age effects everything in life except for the old boats you speak of, is this correct, the answer is no it's not correct. Boats condition as they age depends on the love they get, no love and they look like crap in 40 years.

You haven't answered my question, Beneteau makes 100's of thousands of boat's they are not a new company, how do they survive if their product is so bad?

Your argument has little merit, bar stool rumours not backed by what's actually happening in the world, I used to believe the same but what I've seen over the last 12 years proved to me beyond doubt that cruisers forum "facts" are just make believe alot of the time.

I always find it hilarious when a mates wife that's never worked on a boat or crawled around boats tells me how well built their boat is and how cheaply a production boat is built ...the fact is most have no idea ,they just regurgitate the same old same old never questioning what they "know".