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Old 06-02-2016, 06:38   #121
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

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Originally Posted by transmitterdan View Post
Isn't this almost a carbon copy of the report from Blue Pearl? As I recall, their plywood box top was flopping around and they had water coming in via the rudder tube.



Even if they had a working electric bilge pump it could not keep up with that.
Thanks Dan!

I totally forgot about this... You sated my floppy box video appetite!

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What a POS!
I don't know if it even rates that title...
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Old 06-02-2016, 06:45   #122
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

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Originally Posted by HappyMdRSailor View Post
.

That is just about the crappiest deign I have ever seen... All of the upper bearing forces are transferred to that shitty plywood box... Completely restricting access to the bottom bearing and seal...

I would LOVE to have seen a video of the AP thrashing that box to smithereens...
Hard to say. For sure it is bad in what regards accessibility to an water ingress but regarding the system you would have to see more. The Rudder is probably maintained in place by a upper bearing (on deck) and on the bottom probably there is an auto alignment big ball that works inside an aluminum casing, at least is that way Jeffa systems works and this days almost all are Jeffa or copies.

If like that the forces on that box would not be big...except if induced by a malfunction of the rudder autopilot regarding continuing to make force after having hit all the course (without a piece that stops the course). In that case probably it can be a breakage but in that case, not a problem with the box but with not having a stopper on the autopilot (or having it removed or out of place).

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Old 06-02-2016, 06:45   #123
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pirate Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

For those of you who may not know this dodge.. shut off engine water intake and remove the hose and add this to your pump armoury in an emergency..
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Old 06-02-2016, 07:42   #124
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Hard to say. For sure it is bad in what regards accessibility to an water ingress but regarding the system you would have to see more. The Rudder is probably maintained in place by a upper bearing (on deck) and on the bottom probably there is an auto alignment big ball that works inside an aluminum casing, at least is that way Jeffa systems works and this days almost all are Jeffa or copies.

If like that the forces on that box would not be big...except if induced by a malfunction of the rudder autopilot regarding continuing to make force after having hit all the course (without a piece that stops the course). In that case probably it can be a breakage but in that case, not a problem with the box but with not having a stopper on the autopilot (or having it removed or out of place).

I'm only going by the pic of the system here... stating that the upper bearing is in the box, and the hole in the deck seen is simply an access hole for the e-tiller... In that case.... It's a total crap design... If the upper bearing carrier labeled in the pic is actually a "mid-carrier" ... then the design is a bazillion time better...
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Old 06-02-2016, 08:24   #125
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Hard to say. For sure it is bad in what regards accessibility to an water ingress but regarding the system you would have to see more. The Rudder is probably maintained in place by a upper bearing (on deck) and on the bottom probably there is an auto alignment big ball that works inside an aluminum casing, at least is that way Jeffa systems works and this days almost all are Jeffa or copies.

If like that the forces on that box would not be big...except if induced by a malfunction of the rudder autopilot regarding continuing to make force after having hit all the course (without a piece that stops the course). In that case probably it can be a breakage but in that case, not a problem with the box but with not having a stopper on the autopilot (or having it removed or out of place).

Sorry guys, looking at it better, no upper bearing and you are right, lots of efforts on that box. Not very well designed I would say and it amazes me since Beneteau should have a lot of experience building rudders. Maybe I am not seeing the all picture
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Old 06-02-2016, 08:25   #126
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Hard to say. For sure it is bad in what regards accessibility to an water ingress but regarding the system you would have to see more. The Rudder is probably maintained in place by a upper bearing (on deck) and on the bottom probably there is an auto alignment big ball that works inside an aluminum casing, at least is that way Jeffa systems works and this days almost all are Jeffa or copies.

If like that the forces on that box would not be big...except if induced by a malfunction of the rudder autopilot regarding continuing to make force after having hit all the course (without a piece that stops the course). In that case probably it can be a breakage but in that case, not a problem with the box but with not having a stopper on the autopilot (or having it removed or out of place).


No, no deck top bearing , and no, no auto alignment bearing anywhere, the top bearing is a white plastic piece glued to the ply with plexus , as I say 3 or 4 pages ago, Benetau admit the problem and call to the dealers for a Oceanis recall to install this steel bracket .. obviously this plate only solve one issue , the top bearing problem, but what about with the ply structure?
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Old 06-02-2016, 08:34   #127
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

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That is just about the crappiest deign I have ever seen... All of the upper bearing forces are transferred to that shitty plywood box... Completely restricting access to the bottom bearing and seal...
In a German Forum at Mittelmeer-Skipper-Forum :: Login (not sure if you can access the forum without registering) Oliver, a German sailor describes he had the same problem on his Oceanis 48 in October last year and just barely made it back to port (and on the hard).

Oliver says (rough translating by me into English): "problem on his boat is/was the upper strut / connection point. It sits only on the wooden box. The box is just glued, screwed ... No direct connection of this 'plate' with the upper rudder bearing to the boat structure. If you take into account the lever of the 2m long rudder clearly a construction fault in my point of view. Beneteau agreed to have a yard in Greece to laminate 'the box' to the boat structure but it does not look like a design of a Cat A boat to me.

Oliver"

Regards,

Carsten
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Old 06-02-2016, 08:38   #128
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

Just Lol, the ply cracked, and even the plexus is uneven at the joint in the bearing, kinda a boat finished in a Friday ....
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Old 06-02-2016, 09:01   #129
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
For those of you who may not know this dodge.. shut off engine water intake and remove the hose and add this to your pump armoury in an emergency..
Thanks! Did not know this dodge or ever thought of it, but makes perfect sense.
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Old 06-02-2016, 10:06   #130
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

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Thanks! Did not know this dodge or ever thought of it, but makes perfect sense.


If at all possible remove the hose between the strainer and through hull. Otherwise bilge junk can clog the intake hose and possibly cook the engine. Even with a strainer there is still some risk of clogging and overheating the engine.

Also, remember the raw water pump of a typical propulsion engine on a 40-50 foot sail boat pumps < 500 gallons per hour. There are much higher flow electric pumps available.
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Old 06-02-2016, 10:19   #131
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
No, no deck top bearing , and no, no auto alignment bearing anywhere, the top bearing is a white plastic piece glued to the ply with plexus , as I say 3 or 4 pages ago, Benetau admit the problem and call to the dealers for a Oceanis recall to install this steel bracket .. obviously this plate only solve one issue , the top bearing problem, but what about with the ply structure?


Pretty entertaining for those of us who have actually worked on these to watch people keep trying to explain why it's really a great system, eh?



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Old 06-02-2016, 10:20   #132
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

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If at all possible remove the hose between the strainer and through hull. Otherwise bilge junk can clog the intake hose and possibly cook the engine. Even with a strainer there is still some risk of clogging and overheating the engine.

Also, remember the raw water pump of a typical propulsion engine on a 40-50 foot sail boat pumps < 500 gallons per hour. There are much higher flow electric pumps available.
Sure, I take this as a possible emergency fix, not a permanent arrangement. Thanks for the heads up.
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Old 06-02-2016, 10:23   #133
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

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Sure, I take this as a possible emergency fix, not a permanent arrangement. Thanks for the heads up.



You can also plumb in a bilge strainer box, so that a valve shifts intake from your raw water intake to your strained bilge intake. Much faster and safer.
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Old 06-02-2016, 10:27   #134
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

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Pretty entertaining for those of us who have actually worked on these to watch people keep trying to explain why it's really a great system, eh?



I guess not anymore, to many with the same disease,,,
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Old 06-02-2016, 10:43   #135
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

The rudder support structure is shocking! If I had one of these boats, I'd put in a new rudder with a longer rudder shaft and move the top bearing up to the deck--after beefing up the deck with a lot more laminate. The lever arm between the two current bearings is way too short. Putting in a steel plate/bearing on top of the box and throwing a little glass on it is just a bandaid fix.

Now I understand why the charterers described as the wheels swinging wildly back and forth while the boat didn't turn. The autopilot was trying to keep the boat straight with a failed upper bearing support structure--the ram was just making the top of the rudder shaft wobble around instead of turning it.
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