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Old 01-02-2016, 08:46   #91
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
If a rudder is built so that it may sink the boat, there should be a dam. Or else the rudder should be built strong so that it can not fail in a way that allows water in. Full dot. Build well, sail safe.



We get what we pay for.

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Catalina has what they call a "Deep defense rudder system" that allows the bottom 40% of the rudder to break off in a collision or grounding and leave the remaining upper 60% to limp home with.

They also have a water tight collision bulk head starting at the back of the anchor locker to prevent water ingress in a frontal collision.

These are a few reasons why I like Catalinas construction especially if you are going to buy a production boat. I know it's not a Hylas, oyster or what ever but for a new boat I can afford its the production company I lean towards.
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Old 01-02-2016, 10:15   #92
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
Where I am on this:

1. I believe we can confidently say that something bad happened to the steering/autopilot/rudder shaft. ...
2. leaking rudder shaft seal
3. leaking sail drive seal
4. broken rudder shaft (looks like not from the video)
.....
So its 99% 1, 2, or 3.


Because of the design we now know it was not #2 (no real 'seal' with that tube) so I figure #1 or #3.
I find this intriguing: They say that they could not locate the water ingress source but it seems to me that if it was a leaking rudder shaft, a broken rudder shaft or a leaking saildrive seal it would not be difficult to find the source.

You can reach to each of those places with your hands, not to mention eyes, at you would fell the flow of water and possibly could have done something to diminish the water ingress. So why could not they find the water ingress if it was on one of those places and they were experienced sailors?

I have already asked the OP if they looked at these places, searching for water ingress, but got no reply.
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Old 01-02-2016, 10:22   #93
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

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Originally Posted by ontherocks83 View Post
Catalina has what they call a "Deep defense rudder system" that allows the bottom 40% of the rudder to break off in a collision or grounding and leave the remaining upper 60% to limp home with.

They also have a water tight collision bulk head starting at the back of the anchor locker to prevent water ingress in a frontal collision.

These are a few reasons why I like Catalinas construction especially if you are going to buy a production boat. I know it's not a Hylas, oyster or what ever but for a new boat I can afford its the production company I lean towards.
Regarding accidents with rudders the only safe thing is to have the rudder section separated by the rest of the boat by a water tight bulkhead and I don't think Catalina has that. Even very expensive boats can go down with this type of accident if they do not have that type of bulkhead, that is an expensive one to built. Luck plays a big part on the damage the boat can sustain since many variables are at play.

Here, a very expensive Sweden yacht 45 going down with a rudder problem after hitting hard something:

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Old 01-02-2016, 10:44   #94
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

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Regarding accidents with rudders the only safe thing is to have the rudder section separated by the rest of the boat by a water tight bulkhead and I don't think Catalina has that. Even very expensive boats can go down with this type of accident if they do not have that type of bulkhead, that is an expensive one to built. Luck plays a big part on the damage the boat can sustain since many variables are at play.
No they don't have a water tight bulk head there, and yes many things can cause a ship to sink that are completely un-avoidable.

My point though is they took that extra step at what they feel would be the most probable cause of rudder damage and built in a safety feature to help mitigate it. I obviously have an affinity for Catalina's and no I don't want to get into a peeing contest with anyone on here about best brand because obviously Catalina can be beat by many many brands. My point is for a production brand I like there attitude and approach to how they build Production boats and they've addressed some safety and structual concerns on a budget that others have not.

(on edit I realize that what I just wrote may be read as defensive or annoyed. Please know I mean nothing other then to further the discussion)
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Old 01-02-2016, 11:38   #95
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

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No they don't have a water tight bulk head there, and yes many things can cause a ship to sink that are completely un-avoidable.

My point though is they took that extra step at what they feel would be the most probable cause of rudder damage and built in a safety feature to help mitigate it. I obviously have an affinity for Catalina's and no I don't want to get into a peeing contest with anyone on here about best brand because obviously Catalina can be beat by many many brands. My point is for a production brand I like there attitude and approach to how they build Production boats and they've addressed some safety and structual concerns on a budget that others have not.

(on edit I realize that what I just wrote may be read as defensive or annoyed. Please know I mean nothing other then to further the discussion)
Yes, you looked a bit defensive. I am glad you made that edit.

Theoretically the rudders should be designed to break before breaking the hull or the rudder stock and that should be only a question of good design but even if they are designed with that in mind the variables are so many that sometimes that does not work.

Also difficult to design because the rudders have to be strong for not breaking with a contact of any debris but only break when the force is excessive and can compromise the boat.

Regarding rudders most of them today have a sacrificial part. The more common design is like that:

The last part does not have any structure and about 1/3 of it is sacrificial.

Regarding production boats some of them have water tight bulkheads separating the rudder section from the rest of the boat. No many of those are inexpensive production boats but some are less expensive than a Catalina, like for instance Salona. And no, I have not a Salona
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Old 01-02-2016, 11:48   #96
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

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Regarding production boats some of them have water tight bulkheads separating the rudder section from the rest of the boat. No many of those are inexpensive production boats but some are less expensive than a Catalina, like for instance Salona. And no, I have not a Salona
I did not know that. It is intriguing though, I will have to do some research. Thanks for the info
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Old 03-02-2016, 08:37   #97
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Regarding accidents with rudders the only safe thing is to have the rudder section separated by the rest of the boat by a water tight bulkhead and I don't think Catalina has that. Even very expensive boats can go down with this type of accident if they do not have that type of bulkhead, that is an expensive one to built. Luck plays a big part on the damage the boat can sustain since many variables are at play.

Here, a very expensive Sweden yacht 45 going down with a rudder problem after hitting hard something:



I love how every time a Bene sinks Polux shows up to tell us all how this is a perfectly normal thing, even for high end boats!
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Old 03-02-2016, 09:12   #98
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

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I love how every time a Bene sinks Polux shows up to tell us all how this is a perfectly normal thing, even for high end boats!
I don't understand how you can make that of what I am saying. What I was saying is that if a rudder is not separated by a waterprof bulkhead there is the possibility of that happen pretty much on any boat, even high end boats.

In fact a skeg can be a bad idea since as it is stronger, if the shock is big enough, the skeg can break the hull.

Not implying that it can happen with the same frequency in all boats but certainly implying that the safest feature regarding rudder breakage and sinking is a waterproff bulkhead separating the rudder section from the rest of the boat. That's what I was saying. Do you not agree?
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Old 03-02-2016, 10:06   #99
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

Agreed.

TN's rudder is hung off the back of the keel, so extremely strong and well protected.

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Old 03-02-2016, 10:30   #100
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

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Are bilge alarms not standard equipment on all charter yachts??
In my admittedly limited chartering experience, only 1 of the 4 boats I've chartered had a bilge alarm (and it was an older, non-traditional charter boat, a Baba 30, the rest were standard Bennies/Jeanneaus), none of the checkouts mentioned anything about the bilge pump(s) or alarm or lack thereof (had to sort those things out by myself), first boat I ever chartered had the bilge pump switched off when we got the boat (and I didn't know any better than to check it), not a fun thing to discover halfway to Anegada on my first ever time with the floor boards starting to float!

Needless to say I have a very long checklist of my own that I go through before I leave the dock on a charter (and to make life easier and safer have now bought our own boat that I know will eventually be set up right).

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Old 03-02-2016, 11:31   #101
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

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Originally Posted by Highland Fling View Post
Twin wheels yes two rudders I don't think socan someone who knows the Oceanis 48 intimately confirm rudder configuration?
One of the photos shows stern up and single rudder (still attached)
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Old 03-02-2016, 11:37   #102
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pirate Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

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Having spent a long time sailing around Guadeloupe and Marie Galant and Saints I do believe that the most possible explanation is they caught a fish/lobster trap on the rudder stem and the weight multiplied with the speed they were going at the time tore off the rudder and put a big hole with large ingress of sea in the vessel. At the last Rue du Rum race fall of 2014 the leading boat Banque Populaire tri had the same occurrence twice at the end of the race. The local fishermen put empty 2 litter soda bottles in the water and you better be watching cause sometimes they are hard to see with running seas and the chop that ensues. Been there and seen it first hand
Ernie on the Mary Jane
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Old 03-02-2016, 11:43   #103
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

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Having spent a long time sailing around Guadeloupe and Marie Galant and Saints I do believe that the most possible explanation is they caught a fish/lobster trap on the rudder stem and the weight multiplied with the speed they were going at the time tore off the rudder and put a big hole with large ingress of sea in the vessel. At the last Rue du Rum race fall of 2014 the leading boat Banque Populaire tri had the same occurrence twice at the end of the race. The local fishermen put empty 2 litter soda bottles in the water and you better be watching cause sometimes they are hard to see with running seas and the chop that ensues. Been there and seen it first hand

Ernie on the Mary Jane

The video shows the rudder clearly still in the boat and no visible damage to the hull near the rudder.
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Old 03-02-2016, 11:47   #104
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

So the boat sank by the stem (bow down). Does that make any sense if the water was coming in around the rudder?
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Old 03-02-2016, 11:59   #105
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

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So the boat sank by the stem (bow down). Does that make any sense if the water was coming in around the rudder?
Yes, the boat has very little buoyancy forward.

And they really screwed up towing from astern.
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